Posted by: Shawn (bellshw@aol.com) on Wed Jan 17 12:25:32 2001

Dear Shawn,
> > > > > > > > > > One of the purest, simplest, and effective rhetoric ever bestowed upon me came from a batter instructor that taught SLOW STEP, FAST HIP.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > After a careful examination of the muscle groups in the body, I have decided that the "back hip pocket" (a term Dusty Baker uses, but only to describe the inward turn) must pivot and try to face the pitcher, although it will only end up facing the catcher. I no longer pivot, but keep all my weight on my back foot, and turn hard.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Believe me, it's the only way to hit a softball 400+ feet.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > > > > Knight1285@aol.com
> > > > > > > > > > The Black Hole Lexicographer
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > BHL -
> > > > > > > > > If turning hard with your back leg/foot gives you power, what would happen if you also turned your front hip back at the same time by using your front leg as well? Wouldn't two legs work even better than one to get the job done?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > BHL,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Are you pre coiled in the stance or prior to release (upper body already pointing toward the pitcher)?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Major Dan,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Both legs are important, but there is a bind that happens in the back hip (above the hip) from the upper body working against the lower body.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Stabilizing the back hip (or leg) is more important than just shifting your weight back. Loading the back hip stabilizes the hip (leg) and sets up the "bind" and the inward turn. This bind must and will release (twist in the abs) as you prepare to swing.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Stride, stride length, inward turn, stance (square, open, closed) all play a factor in how the hitter starts the lower body. Weight shifty hitters "usually" just release later.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Helton and Nomar are like springs ready to "go" (Nomar more so). Comparing Helton to Rafeal and you can argue weight shift and rotational for days. Helton comes off the backside (knee, or drops of the back knee), and Rafeal's "bind" and rotation is released much later (glides, drives forward off the back foot/knee).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Rotation comes very natural for hitters who have this going on. Squashing the bug just doesn't get the job done correctly (IMO).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > BHL, pointed out something I look for while watching the lower body. The knees will come forward as the stride is being completed and you can "see" if the back side (front of the thigh, hip) is actually being used correctly. It's why it "looks" like the front knee/leg extension is more important during the actual swing, and why some may over teach throwing the backside.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > My favorite place to stand is facing the hitters back and watching the lower body, easy to see when the bind happens naturally and therefor rotation. Or if they good leverage off the back knee (leg, back foot rotation), or just spin, or to much weight on the back foot, etc. Almost all of it depends on how the player swings as a whole, timing, upper body starting to soon, to late, etc. The entire swing, process is more important than a single element.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Some hitters may stride, stop and then swing trying to force rotation after the completion of the stride (can never really get the back side into the swing). This will happen even with a good hitter when they start to swing to soon, or maybe try to hard to rotate.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And maybe one of biggest problems with instructions maybe to stride 'straight'. The slide step is then formed to stride straight, and there is little to no "signs" of setting up rotation (loading the back hip, no inward turn). Yes, the stride foot ends up fairly straight forward, but the path to set up or create rotation is anything but straight (front knee, front hip).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Lower body rotation is set up to be released upon/as the stride is being completed, the backside releases first (back knee). Then both legs become important, stabilizing rotation and creating a base for the swing. Simple preparing to swing and swinging (coiling and coiling), except technique is more important than how much you can "STRETCH" before swinging (the cat preparing to strike, slow feet fast hip, muscle activation, quickness). It's why a certain individual say's rotation is initiated in the stride (front heel dropping), because if the upper and lower body are working correctly the bind will happen naturally and therefor rotation (must release).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think what BHL is referring to is an conversation about thinking the legs are completely responsible for rotation. Trying to force rotation late, or trying to push hip rotation after the stride. The interactions between the upper and lower body plays a huge role in the ML swing, and why ML hitters say very little about their swing, rotation, etc.. It's always I load my backside and stride, I coil and uncoil, I prepare to swing and swing, always something easy and important (simple) being said.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Shawn
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > BHL,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Do you feel it's combining a little weight shift and then turn? Both legs and hips (torso) adding to quickness and batspeed? (turning off the backside).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Shawn
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dear Shawn,
> > > > > > Sometimes hip rotation is determined by "feel." Jack Mankin told me the he feels he uses his front leg to cause most of the power for hip rotation, although he correctly identifies that both hips must push with equal force.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I, on the other hand, use my back hip AND NO WEIGHT SHIFT to contribute to rotation. I, too, understand that both hips stabalize rotation, but it seems that pushing my front leg straight is just a powerful INVOLUNTARY RESPONSE. I train both hips, but concentrate on the back hip (I'm RH).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But I guess you brought up a pretty significant point. A little advice from Doug Rader: "The less variables in hitting, the better."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > Knight1285@aol.com
> > > > > > BHL
> > > > >
> > > > > BHL,
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree the front leg does and will straighten under the forces created. Having it too tight, or trying to firm it up, can be less than desirable.
> > > > >
> > > > > The point I tried to make long ago, was the thought must be on hip rotation, focus. The hips/torso control the legs and the legs will work better under this condition. Truly using the trunk/torso to power the swing. Which someone claimed was caused by the ground, so I was less than willing to argue body mechanics.
> > > > >
> > > > > And yes, It's as much a feeling as anything.
> > > > >
> > > > > The feet are important, although I can't do the same thing focusing on the feet. How about you? The feet do what they are supposed to do, feel the force being created by the body, stabilize, balance and direct these forces.
> > > > >
> > > > > BHL, I personally like Sheffield's approach. Load the backside, and where ever the lead elbow goes the swing goes (keeps the lead elbow locked or firm, and the back elbow relaxed), power v or straight line back at the pitcher (or contact point). Simple, let it rip.
> > > > >
> > > > > Shawn
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Shawn,
> > > > I like Sheffield's transfer mechanics, but believes sometimes he has too much of a weight shift. Yet, I suppose his use of THT/circular handpath allows him a certain amount of leeway.
> > > >
> > > > Ellis believes that hip rotation is caused by weight shifts in two opposing dircetions. He believes that the front leg opens the hips, as does Ferroli. These "pinwheel" explanations I agree with, but I discovered that the best way to rotate the hips is to turn the back hip.
> > > >
> > > > I guess my philosophical approach could be summarized thusly:
> > > > SLOW STEP/STRIDE, FAST VIOLENT BACK HIP TURN
> > > > If there is a sufficient amount of flex in the front knee, this will not only straighten the front leg, but result in the front toe pointing at the pitcher at contact.
> > > >
> > > > I like Paul Nyman's site, but must disagree about looking for "cues" in hip rotation, because most good hitters will have their back leg in a power L position at contact, rotate the shoulders, ad infinitum.
> > > >
> > > > Shawn, my philosophy about hip rotation sort of reflects the one presented in www.hittheball.com.
> > > >
> > > > Therefore, I believe in keeping the hip rotation simple, and using the muscels of back right rear buttock, rather than the ball of my hip, to rotate. I try to anchor my back foot to the ground as long as possible, and let rotation "squish insects."
> > > >
> > > > Big Mac uses his rear hip.
> > > >
> > > > Any thoughts? I believe that I might have found a proper way to facilitate hip rotate.
> > > >
> > > > I just wish Paul re-opens his public forum so I can post there, too, and learn some more setpro philosophy.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Knight1285@aol.com
> > > > BHL
> > >
> > > Shawn and BHL -
> > > Lots of interesting ideas. I'm trying to digest all this and hope I haven't overlooked statements that will make more sense to me on further rereads.
> > > I am finding that the 'front heel down as trigger' is a better cue than squish the bug. I think in reality both happen. Shawn, I can feel the bind you are talking about and wonder if both of you are referring to the same thing with different words???
> > > One thought has not come up. I find that if the front heel comes down and the back foot turns over/squishes at essentially the same time, the bind occurs pretty naturally and the hips come through easily and quickly. One reason for this is that if the front heel comes down properly, it offsets the front hip / starts it turning counterclockwise (right handed swing). This offset is necessary to start rotation around the center spine axis. Firming the front leg and squishing the bug pushes the back hip around the front hip, displacing the axis of rotation - a less desirable result. This is the danger of BHL's cue - drifting into back foot only.
> > > A second issue - since most hitters either stride or shift weight from back to center, it is the front leg that braces up to stop that shift. Front toe down to weight bearing is that point. Heel down offsets the front hip and starts its backward turn, back foot squish/turnover at the same time starts the back hip forward. The front heel down (FHD) is the trigger for this.
> > > At front heel down the back shoulder dips as well. If FHD and back foot turnover/squish are the two sides of hip torque, back shoulder down syncs into the hip bind by putting the back shoulder behind the back hip - therefore delaying shoulder rotation and creating the torque position / shoulder lag.
> > > Shawn, I'm not reading any of your comments as contradicting this. BHL, I'm not sure. Are you just saying that as a cue, hard back hip turn is where the power comes from, or are you saying that in reality the back leg/hip does it all.?
> > >
> > Dear Major Dan,
> > The discussion is primarily focused on each hip causing equal rotation (i.e., 50% each). However, while some feel that using the front or back leg will cause hip rotation, I would have to politely disagree. In a post I wrote to Shawn, we both discussed how the legs could swivel a certain amount of degrees without causing hip rotation.
> >
> > But, if the back hip is used properly, THE HIPS MUST ROTATE. I guess it is a "feeling" of how to facilitate hip rotation.
> >
> > To be succinct, my swing actually uses equal power to cause hip rotation, although I feel that it comes from my back hip (100%).
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Knight1285@aol.com
> > BHL
> >
> >
>
> Dan,
>
> Just having a friendly chat about semantics, :).
>
> I believe the front heel drop is a very good idea, and helps to set up a natural hip rotation (lower body). And is actually how hitters rotate, it's a process, (from roughly release to contact) and the toe/heel concept will help develop an consistent lower body. Think of the heel drop as having a release effect when the upper body is slightly working against the lower body.
>
> And yes, the bind does happen naturally whith the correct thought, rotating into the hitting position. It doesn't happen on every swing, and I don't have to look up to see how well a player hit the ball when standing behind them watching the lower body.
>
> Regaining the axis or an athlete position is often described as shifting weight between the legs. This latter process is easy to spot in amateurs, usually looks like they are forcing the swing.
>
> Getting the backside into the swing is important (IMO), which I usually refer to as leverage. The body needs to be in front of the back knee before rotation really kicks in. I disagree with many of the instructions that this is weight "shifty" process. More and more hitters are going away from this thought (or show less), or show it in their swings. Weight shift to me is nothing more than that dynamic moment getting into the stretch position. Weight shift has it's place (just like hip rotation is a feeling, so is weight shift), but ultimately the hitter well need to refine "technique" to improve quickness and bat speed.
>
> In the end, every hitter does look different, using roughly the same technique. I will try to put a few clips together for a little feedback.
>
> BHL, Sheffield has a 'stiffer' back knee, looks like rotation is started with a stiff (straight) back knee at times (pushes, with the stiff back knee). And maybe a little more upper body involvement than your average hitter, really throws the bat head.
>
> Can't argue with his success though. I think the amount of front leg and back leg somewhat depends on pitch location, turning on a inside pitch is different than hitting an outside pitch. Different feelings for different pitches.
>
> Shawn

"Hi BHL, Shawn & Major Dan

Would it be safe to assume that batters who feel the back leg is mainly responsible for hip rotation are also back-side (top-hand) dominate? And those that think front leg is more front-side (bottom-hand) orientated.

Jack Mankin"

Hi Jack,

Yes it's rather easy to make that assumption. Although even someone who hits more against the front leg can rotate nicely.

What we're discussing isn't the typical top hand dominant hitter (can't get the backside into the swing), or starts to use the upper body way to soon :).

Definitely what the lower body does effects the upperbody and vice versa.

Shawn