Posted by: tom.guerry (tom.guerry@kp.org) on Sat Apr 23 16:53:52 2005

Thanks for going through that,Jack.

If you watch the Jones videos,you will immediately understand what is going on because it
is SO similar to your baseball swing description.

As far as arm action and wrist rolling,it is best/clearest to try to give anatomical names to
these more vague descriptions.

I might restate your question as "given the non-migrating/fixed golf grip at address (body
facing ball),how can the ball be hit with the hips/body turned open (toward target) at
contact (as happens in the swing) if the wrists have not rolled ?

To explain this,I would equate "wrist roll" with the anatomic terms "pronation" and
supination" which are forearm (not arm/humerus) twisting actions.

Jones swings in such a way that the club face is turned NOT by wrist rolling/pronation/
supination,BUT by twisting of the lead arm in the shoulder socket ,more exactly by so-
called "internal rotation" of the lead arm/humerus.

Jones had a fairly "modern" swing in this sense,because there were a number of players
before him who did use forearm twist/wrist roll through contact with the very flexible
wood shafts,but Jones got better power and bathead control without this using the same
flail type lead arm motion/sequence as in hitting.In hitting,the same lead arm internal
rotation is the connecting/box forming/elevation of lead elbow into swing plane lead arm
action that works with back arm "pre-launch tht" and "tht" at launch to turn the bathead
into the desired swing plane without pushing the handpath and interrupting body coil pre-
maturely.

The clubface opening/closing action in golf is almost always described in lead arm
terms,and usually inaccurately called "pronation" to describe the clubface fanning open on
the backswing.Actually,what Jones does (see video) and describes is internal rotation of
the lead arm.As the downswing proceeds,the lead arm remains firm/connected/internally
rotated and with the right sequence,the lead wrist remains coked (more exactly abducted
until late adduction throught contact (flail),then the lead forearm only rotates
independently of the arm/humerus after contact.

Jones set this up by describing the preferred grip as a firm grip with the left (lead) hand, a
loose right hand grip and having the back of the left hand somewhat on top of the club so
that there is already fairly full left forearm twist in the pronated direction at address.AT
contact,more of the back of the left hand is seen becasue the lead arm has internally
rotated and stayed firm that way through forward swing,Therefore in the downsing the
wrists then adduct late (flail) with no "roll" until after contact.

I would encourage you to look at his "how I play golf" videos (on golf channel all the time)
,especially hitting the full driver or woods (brassie/spoon).

He will often stop the action at the top at which point the swing then looks almost exactly
as you describe it for baseball.The only very difficult to understand difference between his
swing is the THT action that you describe,demonstrate and fully understand as evidenced
in your "golf club drill.

Nyman tried to run a bunch of simulations to disprove "THT" but he actually proved your
point by demonstrating a reactive back arm force that can be easily accentuated by active
arm/scap force production to greatly quicken swing acceleration,again,just as in your golf
club drill.

Beyond this difference (unlike hitting,no THT in golf necessary to quicken the swing to
optimize it for minimal timing error),the major difference that shortens the baseball swing
are the head looking forward and the back foot being square or toward the pitcher as
opposed to pointing back.

Jones does NOT develop a lot of shoulder/hip separation (this is what is meant in hitting
by excessive "counter-rotation").Instead because he is looking down (head down,not
looking out) with the back foot turned back a little,the hips turn well away from the front
with the equivalent of the "inward turn"/"negative move" on the backswing.

Otherwise,from the top down he is just as you describe with the "turn the front heel,swing
the bathead "cue/advice".

The other MAJOR shortening/quickening of the stroke is becasue of the shortened swing
radius by bent lead arm and short bat.

Like you,I have always wondered what if any hip/weight/body absolutes there might be in
terms of hips and weight shift etc,and things are extreemly variable so absolute static
landmarks are not found,BUT Jones provides the necessary universal sequence/
relationship descriptions of what is happening with the body that I believ will make
immediate sense to you when you watch his AMAZING (for70 or so years ago) tapes.

That is enough of my poor attempis at description,but hopefully this will give you some
context.Here is a link to show the point in the golf swing when (or just after) the clubhead
"launches" in the sense of the bathead getting out of the arc of the handpath:

http://www.golfbetterproductions.com/comparison.asp

At this point in the golf swing,the lead arm/lead side will lead the flail (Mankin principle
that shoulder turns until contact,not stopping prematurely).At this point,the back arm/
forearm has rotated down and is lined up such that it will now unload by arm 'EXTENSION"
with no rolling (forearm twist) before contact.Then wrists will both roll after contact(both
forearms will twist,back arm pronating,lead arm supinating.

Now finally after all that some Jones quotes :

"First,it does not help to throw the clubhead into the ball ahead of the hands,and
second,the right arm should not begin to rotate nor the right wirst begin to turn or climb
over the left until after the ball has been struck.

"To get the clubhead in first,or to roll the wrists are two favorite ways of trying to correct
the slice,The only trouble is that neither ever works.{Jones goes on to describe the cause
and effect here].

"In a sound golf stroke,the back of the left hand is visible at the instant of impact to an
observer standing in front of the player [oppo batters box/open view]. It is important that
this hand should drive straight through the impact position in the effort to direct the head
of the club precisely alomg the line of play.The turning action [wrist roll/forearm
twist],which begins to take place an appreciable space after contact,does so then because
the player's muscles relax after the effort ofhitting,and because his swing has then
reached the limit of motion it can accomodate along the line of flight.

"The stroke is primarily a backhand one lead by the left (front side) with the back arm
catching up at contact."

Sounds like rotation and torque blended much the same way,the most difficult to
understand difference being back arm tht action in hitting.