Posted by: grc () on Sun Dec 17 16:40:52 2000

>>>The legs apply torque to the hips, front leg pushing front hip back, back leg pushing back hip around. This opening of the hips precedes the shoulder turn. The amount of hip turn before shoulder turn is the torque angle and is a key contributor to swing power.
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> > The waist is the conduit or connector of upper and lower body. It does not, itself, apply torque but transfers lower body torque to the upper body. <<<
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> > Hi Major Dan
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> > I am in full agreement with your assessment of what generates hip rotation. But I need to have a better understanding of your next statement --“ This opening of the hips precedes the shoulder turn. The amount of hip turn before shoulder turn is the torque angle and is a key contributor to swing power.” -- Does this mean that a greater “torque angle” is desirable? I know there has been discussion that seems to break rotation into two parts - lower body & torso. I have never been able to understand some of their thinking?
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> > I have stated that the rotation of the hips and shoulders should be thought of as happening “in unison.” By that, I mean the muscle contractions that turn the torso and shoulders are occurring “in unison” with the leg muscle contractions that drive hip rotation. Naturally hip rotation will lead shoulder rotation by a few degrees due the much greater inertia posed from greater mass of the upper body and that of accelerating the bat.
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> > It is my opinion that the more the hips open before the torso muscle contraction begins, the less the hips can contribute to shoulder rotation. In other words, the hips would merely serve as a platform for the torso to operate from and less as a driving force of shoulder rotation. -- This is why I am against the 2 (or 3) stage approach I have seen advertised on TV. 1= stride, 2= squash the bug (almost fully opening the hip while keeping the shoulders closed), 3=swing.
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> > Some claim, and they may have a point, that the hips need to open some to take out slack. But can this be effective without some muscle contraction in the torso? If I leave my muscles relaxed, I can keep my shoulders closed and rotate the hips 50 or 60 degrees and feel little tension developed.
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> > Jack Mankin
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> Jack -
> My understanding of it is that power is transferred through the kinetic chain from the bottom up - legs turn hips, hips turn shoulders, etc. The shoulder turn lags behind the hip turn though it is a momentary lag.
> I am not saying that the torso, or core musculature, should not be involved. In fact, as you say, there would be no point to turning the hips if the torso did not actively connect them.
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> The magic is in the elasticity of the torso connection.
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> If the back hip and back shoulder were locked together throughout, the swing would be more static and less powerful. The tension created when the hips get ahead of the shoulders is like winding a spring. When the spring releases, the shoulders fly around more quickly.
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> Mike Epstein, on his tape and website, focuses on this movement. http://www.mikeepsteinhitting.com/tips.htm has some excellent pictures of hitters and pitchers at what he calls the moment of torque - where the hips have opened and just before the shoulders start to snap around. Epstein says that the greater the torque angle, the more power production. MLB players with 30+ degrees of torque angle all hit 30 or more homeruns. Tiger Woods gets 80 degrees of torque angle. Of course it is easier to do this with a ball sitting still on a tee!
> But if these measurements are accurate, they are essentially measurements of how much the inner spring is wound before unwinding. Some of this is technique, some is genetics. But Epstein's entire teaching program revolves around creating this. He feels it is the core movement that all great hitters have in common.
> He doesn't talk about top or bottom hand torque at all. IMO your observations and his are essentially compatible, just in different areas. His movements create a circular hand path that he never conceptualizes, etc.
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> Jack, I love the part of your tape where you take the one handed golf swing and then apply top hand torque to it. It is a great demonstration and an exercise I use with my kids to get the feel of top hand torque. When you do that, you go 'back' by lifting the front heel and go forward by dropping the heel and lifting up the back heel.
> This is the rhythm of the swing. If you do the same movement but exagerate opening the hips via the feet and leg movements you can juice the turn and get the shoulders to snap around faster. With some experimentation, you can sync the timing of the top hand torque into this movement and generate greater batspeed. The two movements work together very well in my experience.
> Hope that clarifies what I said. What do you think?
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>jack.....i know you don't like the "K" word (kinetic chain), but i think major dan's statement "The tension created when the hips get ahead of the shoulders is like winding a spring. When the spring releases, the shoulders fly around more quickly" is (a) true and (b) another way of describing the kinetic chain...............question to major dan: by 30 degrees of torque angle do you mean at some point (or more tahn one point) in the swing the hips are turned 30 degrees "ahead" of the shoulder?......this is a very important concept & i want to make sure i understand it correctly.........respectfully, grc..........