Posted by: Jack Mankin (MrBatspeed@aol.com) on Sun Feb 6 21:24:59 2005

Actally I have questions on 2 types of torque...
> >
> > 1. Pre-swing torque or pre-launch torque. I was reading the "swing mechanics" section and it sounds like you should be creating torque during your inward turn as your hands move back to the rear shoulder. To me, this feels like more of a "drifting" movement before the front heel drops. For this to be torque doesn't the bottom hand have to be pulling in the opposite direction of the top hand? Why would you want to create torque at this point, before the front heel has dropped and the swing has been initiated? It seems like you would get your hand arc way out in front of your hip and shoulder arcs.
> >
> > 2. THT - Like the others that have posted before me I'm struggling with how to apply this concept. Your top hand can certainly pull back toward the catcher at the start of the swing arc but then once the barrel's arc starts moving toward the direction of third base then toward the pitcher, the rear hand can no longer pull unless you want to decelerate your bat. So does the rear hand ride along after the initial pull or does it pull first, then ride along, then push as the barrel approaches contact? I certainly can't teach this to my son is I can't make it work myself.
> >
> > Thanks.
> > Jon
>
> Good questions that have been asked before but never answered. If you go to setpro Paul Nyman and others have fully documented the MYTH of tht. Whenever anyone challenges Jack or tries to pin him down on certain questions Jack simply changes the subject, gives non-answers, says I'll answer that question with a question of my own", etc, etc.
> Now, if you think this is coming from a non-believer who is in the minority, let me ask you this: name one Major Leaguer or one prominent hitting instructor or one college coach who believes in tht.
> Jack's canned response to this is that he has clips of major leaguers
> executing tht and that's all that matters. Well, does Jack have clips of major leaguers consciously pulling their knob toward the catcher? Does Jack have clips that reveal what the hitters are thinking? I can take any clip I want and say "aha, this hitter is executing just like I think he should" but that doesn't mean what he is doing is for the same reasons I think he should be doing.
> If Jack thinks tht exists he should be able to justify it with science. That's impossible of course, but why not testimonials? How many major leaguers, professional hitting coaches, college coaches or professional scouts are willing to come forward in support of tht? How many scientists are willing to come forward? All Jack has is an ex-minor leaguer who operates a batting cage and a professor at Cal Poly who has publicly disavowed his "support" (10 years ago) of tht.
>

Hi All

When you read an attack like that above, keep in mind that this person does not have the strength of character to sign his name to it. Why, because of who he is and because his erroneous claims can be easily disproved. As an example, he states, “a professor at Cal Poly who has publicly disavowed his 'support' (10 years ago) of tht.” That is a complete fabrication of the facts.

What Art claims is impossible because the professor and I never even discussed the term THT. The last correspondence between the professor and I was in 1994 when I provided the professor with a video tape and asked for his feedback and suggestions based on his knowledge and experience, and we only referred to torque as a factor in generating bat speed. I had not even coined the terms THT, BHT and CHP at that time. The professor and I agree that torque applied to the handle is a major factor in generating bat speed. However, to this day, the professor and I have never once discussed THT or the mechanics of it.

Notably, what Professor Leff says in his letter to me regarding torque applied at the handle being a major factor in generating bat speed concurs with the findings of three other Physics Labs. That means Art’s claim that there is no scientific evidence to support the existence of torque is also erroneous. However, there is no amount of evidence that will ever open the mind of people like Art and, therefore, the purpose of this post is not to respond to (or convince) him, but to speak to the rest of you who may not be familiar with the agenda of people like Art.

I find it strange and ironic that Art and some others from Setpro talk about no MLB players or coaches using torque or a circular hand path by name, but they completely ignore the fact that these same players and coaches do not talk about scap loading, flailing, and so on. Rather, many players and coaches talk in cliches, reverting back to what they were taught as they were growing up, and notwithstanding that the great players are using different mechanics than what they actually speak of. You will find many posts on this discussion board pertaining to pro coaches not teaching the mechanics that the great players are using. What is being discussed at BatSpeed.com regarding the baseball swing (and on a few other websites) is cutting edge material, and time will tell what impact it has on the baseball community at large. Personally, I believe that the Final Arc 2 Instructional Video will convince many players and coaches that the great players are implementing rotational mechanics, CHP, and the application of torque as discussed on BatSpeed.com.

I could care less what Art or some at Setpro believe because, as noted, they have a different agenda, but my question remains to those who say that torque plays no factor in the swing and is not applied to the bat at any point in the swing is as follows: 1) At the beginning of the swing, as the bat is accelerating in a circular motion from a) the lead shoulder pulling the lead arm and bottom hand around toward the pitcher, and b) while the top hand is static or moving away from the pitcher as the rear elbow is lowering, what are the forces acting on the bat if torque is not a factor?; 2) At contact, as the lead shoulder is rotating and pulling the bottom hand around the top hand (causing the hook in the handpath), what are the forces acting on the bat during this push-pull action if torque is not a factor? I have always tried to answer their questions in detail, but speaking of questions going unanswered, I've become accustomed to silence in response to these specific questions and the reason is because torque is most certainly a factor in the swing.

Jack Mankin

PS. Because my purpose here is to respond to the false and disingenuous claims with facts rather than unfounded and baseless suggestions as Art has done, I have posted actual letters from the professor to dispel any ambiguity to show you the authenticity and complete meaning of Professor Leff's letters to me and to refute the false allegations. To serve that purpose, Professor Leff's letters will only remain active for a short period of time. Please note that we consider this post and all posts to be the copyright of BatSpeed.com, as well as all material on BatSpeed.com, and we do not authorize any person, company or website to copy and paste the materials, pictures or letters herein or any portion thereof without express permission from BatSpeed.com.

First letter from Professor Leff

Second letter from Professor Leff