Posted by: grc () on Fri Dec 17 18:02:48 2004

Hi All
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> Getting the hands close to the back-shoulder as the swing is initiated is a must for batters to attain their maximum hitting potential. Some posts, like grc’s, would have you think that the best hitters keep their hands 8 to 12 inches away from the back-shoulder during the swing. Below are couple statements grc made in a post below that represents the thinking of a few other posts.
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> >>> you and jack are dodging the issue...thousands of hitters have their hands 8 inches or more away from shoulders...very few have hands glued to shoulder
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> the bottom line is JACK IS HAVING HITTERS HAVE THEIR HANDS SIGNIFICANTLY CLOSER TO THE SHOULDER THAN THE AVERAGE MAJOR LEAGUE HITTER....so....why should jack be so suprised at being asked to defend such a radical concept, <<<
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> Far from “dodging the issue”, the concept of initiating your swing with your hands 8 to 12 inches away from the shoulder is so destructive to a batter’s potential, that I am addressing the issue as a new thread. – I notice that Youth Baseball has their swing clips running again ( http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/swings.html ). I thought it would be helpful if we looked at a few clips that show a side view of these great hitters. This view will allow us the get a fairly good view of the hands/shoulder relationship as the elbow lowers to the slot and the batters begins to rotate.
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> I looked at most of the side views shown and found about the same “hands/shoulder relationship as the elbow lowers to the slot and the batters begins to rotate.” I choose Boone (upper right clip) because it gives the largest and clearest view. But whether you look at Jones, Williams, ect., you will see about the same hands/shoulder relationship occurring during the swing.
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> Note: The program I view the clips with does not have a frame counter – I just slide the bar to advance frames and try to estimate the count.
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> Let us all take a look at the Boone clip –
> (Frame #1) – Indeed, grc and company are correct at this point. As Boone stands in the box, his hands are 8 to 12 inches from the shoulder.
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> (Frame #2 to frame # 8 or 9) -- Boone may have started with his hands 8+ inches from the shoulder, but note that as he prepares his launch position and pulls the elbow back toward the third base dugout, the hands are being pulled closer and closer to the shoulder.
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> (About Frame # 11 or 12) – Look at the hands/shoulder relationship as the elbow lowers 30 degrees – then 45 degrees. This is about the position I have a student start the “Thumb to the Shoulder Drill”
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> If you truly feel Boone and the other hitters are keeping his hands 8+ inches away from their shoulder as the elbow lowers, that’s ok with me. However I have seen great progress in students learning the principle of THT, BHT, CHP and the hook in the hand-path by practicing keeping their extended thumb touching the shoulder during initiation.
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> Jack Mankin
> you have chosen an excellent clip and in all due respect to you and to me, either i am blind or you are....i'll make my comments on the clip and then people can decide what they see or don't see...i don't wan't to be a pest....my comments on the clip:

you say frame # 2 to # 8 or 9 the hands are coming closer to the shoulder....well, in my view, at frame 12 the back elbow is raised at it's highest level (good in my opinion)...the elbow is bent at roughly 45 degrees & the back arm extends almost in a straight line from the elbow to the hand holding the bat, a distance of about 1 foot...it might be dificult to measure this distance fom a clip, but i am about the same size as boone and if i put my elbow, hands, etc in the same exact position as boone, the distance from my inner elbow (where the bend of elbow takes place)to the center of my fist is abot 12 to 13 inches...how do you see that his hands are any closer to the shoulder?

in this position (frame 12) the only way his fist could be within even 5 or 6 inches of his shoulder would be if his arm was actually squished in towards his chest....my geometry is not that great but i believe that would translate into an elbow bend of about 80 degrees (assume a "straight, unbent arm is zero degrees)...

i do see some of this "squishing" of the front arm towards the chest (thus lessening the distance between fist and shoulder) taking place AS THE SWING IS UNDERWAY, but even then (1) this is after, not before launch and (2) the distance of shoulder/fist is still a good 6 or 8 inches....

ok, thanks jack for letting me have my say...as i have said many time before i do indeed agree with about 95 percent of your philosophy...i think your great contribution to the body of knowledge of hitting is significant, particulary in the areas of the chp, knob to the catcher thing and other matters...i just think you are wrong on this one....i would be greatly interested in what the others think....

respectfully, grc.....