Posted by: BHL (Knight1285@aol.com) on Thu Nov 18 20:42:33 2004

>>> He(Adair) states in his book that the body moves forward about 18 inches at 7 mph during the swing. (not before rotation, but during the swing).
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > I have third edition. '18 inches' was cut and '7 mph' was changed to '6 mph' in it
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd like to ask you about your phrase '(not before rotation, but during the swing)'. Isn't it your misunderstanding of his theory? <<<
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Marlin
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > No, there is no misunderstanding. I have discussed this very point with him in phone calls and by mail. In a paper I sent him, I stated that batters might stride forward as they prepare to swing. However, their forward motion ceased before rotation and they rotated around a stationary axis. He stated that was impossible. For a batter to develop the needed kinetic energy for the swing there must be forward movement of body mass during the swing. He then went on to state in a letter to me that any batter who rotated around stationary axis could not generate enough energy to hit a ball past second base.
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not saying that he still holds that view. However, that was his view in 1990 as expressed in his book and during our phone discussions and was also stated in his letter to me.
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > Jack Mankin
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> > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for answering me.
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> > > > > > > > > > > > Reading your post and his book, i still think the definition of the swing are different between you and Adair. I guess he regards the stride as a part of the swing and i think his model explains linear transfer method very well.
> > > > > > > > > > > > But he may not know the rotational method. I was a little surprised.
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> > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you
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> > > > > > > > > > > I doubt Adair has actually studied hitters. While you can have weight shift, translation move, you become rotational as the stride ends (toe touch). You can agrue if this translation move provides more energy, but you can't deny it works. It does work, but you must stay coiled during the translation move (not swinging) and then uncoil at the end of the stride (swing).
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> > > > > > > > > > > This is the same agruement of the swing being a combination of weight shift and rotation. You can be very rotational at the end of the stride (weight) and establish a rotational axis (swing) at the end of the striding action.
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> > > > > > > > > > > And what we are talking about is the work off the backside that causes the mass to move forward, the stride doesn't really move the mass forward.
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> > > > > > > > > > > What we have is a problem with a misunderstanding of when the swing begins. You are not swinging during weight shift or the translation movement, you swing at the end of the movement (become rotational). You can lump the weight and translation movement into the loading portion of the swing (some might call it coiling). Just like someone might load without a translation movement. the translation movement becomes part of the loading and unloading cycle. It's just a different way of creating energy for the swing.
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> > > > > > > > > > > The real swing starts at toe touch (heel drop), unloading, regardless of what you do to prepare the swing. Stride or no stride they still use the same sequences and achieve a rotational axis.
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> > > > > > > > > > > There is so much talk about staying back and just rotating, that it's believed weigh shift doesn't work. When in reality it works just as well, just fewer hitters have a pronounced weight shift (mass moving forward), and even fewer right handers have such a move. You see it in lefty's moreso then righties.
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> > > > > > > > > > > Your not a linear hitter because of your weight shift or translation move, which can be called a linear move, you are linear because of your transfer mechanics (not being rotational at the end of the stride). I think this site has debated this issue many times about the definition of linear and rotational. What is being overlooked is the fact the real swing doesn't begin until toe touch (heel drop). You can still be a rotational hitter, however we want to define rotation. But' by the definitions used at this site rotational vs linear has to so with transfer mechanics.
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> > > > > > > > > > > So Adiar is wrong, you don't move forward during the swing. You move forward prior to the real swing. Anybody who has studied hitters or hitting knows this to be true.
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> > > > > > > > > > You said it twice. "The swing doesn't start until toe touch (heel drop)". What do you mean? Toe touch and heel drop are two different times. The swing can't start twice.
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> > > > > > > > > considering that the time between toe touch and heel land ranges from .0167 to .033, and considering that the reference point of the "start" of a swing might slightly differ from someone else's reference point, i think, teacherman that you might be splitting hairs.....
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> > > > > > > > When you have .4 of a second or less to decide if to swing and then swing, I see no hair splitting going on.
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> > > > > > > first of all you don't have .4 seconds to decide, uou have.2 seconds to decide....and secondly you miss the point...the issue is definition of when the swing starts, and everyone has their own definition of when it starts...you are splitting hairs and the hair splitting has nothing to do with the reaction time of .2 seconds.....
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> > > > > > You only used the part of my statement that favors your uniformed opinion. You conveniently left out the "and swing" part. You also left out your name, which makes sense.
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> > > > > > Don't know that I agree that everyone has their own definition of the beginning of the swing. But, the only one that counts is the right one. If you think the swing starts at heel drop you'll be late against top fastballs. Or, you'll be starting early and subject to poor results against offspeed pitches. The hips push the heel down. The heel drop does not initiate the swing.
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> > > > > > If the heel drops starts the swing why can I drop the heel and not swing.................???????????????????????
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> > > > > """If the heel drops starts the swing why can I drop the heel and not swing.................???????????????????????"""
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> > > > > That is just stupid, as I mentioned the heel is the unloading sequence. You are just trying to split hairs on the heel drop sequence. I guess you don't like Epstein's teaching on the subject. I don't agree with the heel drop initiating the swing either, it's just a reference point to the unloading of the swing.
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> > > > > Dave is trying to do the same thing below on no stride hitting, saying the heel is pushed down, instead of dropping. The only reason why it might feel like it's being push down is because of the hip action.
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> > > > > It's hard to follow these post's going all over the place, and without real time posting. But', I don't think anyone has accomplished anything in their posts in regards to the question. There is just a bunch of hair splitting going on when anyone says something.
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> > > > > """You said it twice. "The swing doesn't start until toe touch (heel drop)". What do you mean? Toe touch and heel drop are two different times. The swing can't start twice."""
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> > > > > This is also a stupid question. The swing doesn't start until the stride ends. At toe touch you are in the launch position. It doesn't matter what you say happens prior to toe touch, the swing begins to unfold, unload, from the launch position (the swing just flows).
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> > > > > And nobody is really answering the question. It sounds like there in no beginning to the swing and it doesn't matter if your striding and swinging or committing the hands to soon.
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> > > > Shawn says.....
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> > > > """If the heel drops starts the swing why can I drop the heel and not swing.................???????????????????????"""
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> > > > That is just stupid""
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> > > > Which most pass as a reasonable response. But, I ask why? Why is it stupid? Most here can not answer it.
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> > > > The reason is the swing starts in the center. I can't rotate my hips (center) and not swing. But, it's very easy to drop the heel and not swing. So, I ask, which starts the swing? And, why is it stupid?
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> > > > Could it be some lack an understanding?
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> > > > The hip has to be cocked and ready to go. It has to launch instantaneously. It has to launch every bit as quick if not quicker than a finger loaded with your thumb to flick someone. Any slower launch and you're late. Any unnecessary movements of the arms and you're in trouble. If you have to drop your heel to launch the hip you're late. Plain and simiple.
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> > > > Some of you need to hit. Go to the cage. Set it at 90mph and then drop your heel to start the swing....................swish, swish, swish.....you're out.
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> > > > The load has to be in the center. It has to unload from the center. This unload will push the heel down. Not the other way around.
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> > > > You also say......."""You said it twice. "The swing doesn't start until toe touch (heel drop)". What do you mean? Toe touch and heel drop are two different times. The swing can't start twice."""
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> > > > This is also a stupid question."..........
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> > > > Why? Because it challenged your thought.
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> > > > I guess you don't think there is a significant difference, for a striding hitter, as to the timing of and difference between toe touch and heel drop. Neither have anything to do with the start of the swing.
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> > > > Do you think a boxer says......"drop my heel".....when he wants to throw his best punch??????????
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> > > Your only reading what you want, I said the heel drop is the unloading of the swing. You don't drop the heel to unload, rather the toe/heel sequence is part of the unloading.
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> > > You don't even think about the toe/heel sequence, it's just the best sequence to have flexion in the front leg so you can adjust your swing. You don't land totally flat footed or with the front leg already straightened.
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> > > Hip action is where it's at, if the swing resembles some whip principles then the hips are the handle of the whip. They move to crack the whip.
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> > > I understand where the swing begins and all that it entails.
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> > > But, here is something you don't understand, at toe touch you are in the launch position. You are not in the launch position after but prior to the heel drop. Regardless of how you prepare the launch position you are ready to swing at toe touch.
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> > > """I guess you don't think there is a significant difference, for a striding hitter, as to the timing of and difference between toe touch and heel drop. Neither have anything to do with the start of the swing."""
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> > > Not only is it the best sequence to have it helps with swing flexion, flexion being the ability to adjust the timing of your swing.
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> > > What makes you you so certain that neither have anything to do with the start of the swing?? I always thought the view on the stride was it helped timing.
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> > > Ted Williams said wait and be quick, he hated to be early with the swing. Yet, we can also say earlier is better because you can adjust accordingly and not be rush in your swing. Ideally we to understand both sides of the story. They both apply to swinging a bat and hitting. Ted also said everybody lunges somewhat, this applies to being early. You can't shoot a canon from a canoe, if the that front foot doesn't get down your in trouble (and this can happens for varies reasons, e.g. striding and swinging).
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> > > I think your agruement is with yourself, you are only reading what you wish to see.
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> > Whooever you are......
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> > You're ranking up their with Tom when trying to understand your posts.
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> > You said...
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> > ..."the heel drop is the unloading of the swing. You don't drop the heel to unload, rather the toe/heel sequence is part of the unloading."
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> > What is the difference between unloading and launch?
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> > To say the toe/heel sequence is part of the unloading is misleading. Does the heel drop, yes. Does it start the swing. No. It is reactionary to the large muscles of the hips and torso.
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> > And you say.....
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> > ..."here is something you don't understand, at toe touch you are in the launch position. You are not in the launch position after but prior to the heel drop. Regardless of how you prepare the launch position you are ready to swing at toe touch"
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> > What does this have to do with anything? I can be in the launch position and not launch. I can be at toe touch and not launch.
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> > No one is arguing the position from which you launch.
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> > What you don't understand is what muscles launch it. Toe touch and or heel drop do not launch the swing. The muscles of my lower front leg have little to do with the launch.
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> >BHL I have always trusted your judgement and it seems like you pnce expressed an opinion on this matter.
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Hi Barry,

It seems as this post has illicited a vast array of responses, all which might seem, upon a primary glance, to hold validity. For instance, is it de facto to shift weight onto the front foot as a means of developing power for bat-speed?

When phrased in this manner, the only a yes / no response can satisfy the equation. If the question pertains to whether or not a person must shift his or her weight towards the anterior or posterior foot in the stance, one must affirm that weight shift is necessary, since it helps bring the batter to a balanced posture. However, if the question asks whether weight shift continues once the batter sets up the proper axis, the question, affirmed in the former instance, must be repudiated in the latter instance. Hence, Jack Mankin is correct in his argument that weight shift and rotation are not concomitant with each other.

Mike Epstein argues that, once the front heel drops, and the front shoulder tucks, rotation begins. Put bluntly, the body, once lunging ahead with the bat, now must follow a path around the rotating body. In fact, JJA, in one post, argued that, no matter how hard a person tries to push the hands linearly, they will always wind up gyrating in a circular pattern, providing the lower body rotates around a stationary axis. This is why the front heel drop is essential, for, without it, no hip rotation would be initiated, and the resulting swing would be all upper body.

Epstein and Mankin also recognize that "kinetic energy works from the ground up," which is why I believe that Epstein's torque position is instrumental in accumulating bat speed. In short, here's what occurs:

1) A person lands with his / her front toe opened 45-90 degrees.
2) That individual must drop the front heel.
3) At the same time, that person must bring the back heel off the ground, turn the back knee down and in, and bring the back hip around its axis.

As for as upper body mechanics are concerned, I believe that all good hitters have a CHP, but have yet to decide whether torque is a factor, or just a cue. I say this, not because I find Paul Nyman's arguments persuasive, but because I wonder how a person can torque a bat if centrifugal force will cause the bat to become light at contact anyway. My alternative theory is that the bat either traverses a greater degree of rotation, or has sweeps through a wider circumference.

Lastly, I have not knowledge of kinesiology, since my bailiwick is in English and Euclidean Geometry. To find that out, I would ask Tom Guerry.

I hope I "covered all the bases."

Take care,
BHL