Posted by: Dave (cdpaetkau@telus.net) on Mon Nov 15 14:15:19 2004

>>> He(Adair) states in his book that the body moves forward about 18 inches at 7 mph during the swing. (not before rotation, but during the swing).
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> > > > > > > > I have third edition. '18 inches' was cut and '7 mph' was changed to '6 mph' in it
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> > > > > > > > I'd like to ask you about your phrase '(not before rotation, but during the swing)'. Isn't it your misunderstanding of his theory? <<<
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> > > > > > > > Hi Marlin
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> > > > > > > > No, there is no misunderstanding. I have discussed this very point with him in phone calls and by mail. In a paper I sent him, I stated that batters might stride forward as they prepare to swing. However, their forward motion ceased before rotation and they rotated around a stationary axis. He stated that was impossible. For a batter to develop the needed kinetic energy for the swing there must be forward movement of body mass during the swing. He then went on to state in a letter to me that any batter who rotated around stationary axis could not generate enough energy to hit a ball past second base.
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> > > > > > > > I am not saying that he still holds that view. However, that was his view in 1990 as expressed in his book and during our phone discussions and was also stated in his letter to me.
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> > > > > > > > Jack Mankin
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> > > > > > > Thank you for answering me.
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> > > > > > > Reading your post and his book, i still think the definition of the swing are different between you and Adair. I guess he regards the stride as a part of the swing and i think his model explains linear transfer method very well.
> > > > > > > But he may not know the rotational method. I was a little surprised.
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> > > > > > > Thank you
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> > > > > > I doubt Adair has actually studied hitters. While you can have weight shift, translation move, you become rotational as the stride ends (toe touch). You can agrue if this translation move provides more energy, but you can't deny it works. It does work, but you must stay coiled during the translation move (not swinging) and then uncoil at the end of the stride (swing).
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> > > > > > This is the same agruement of the swing being a combination of weight shift and rotation. You can be very rotational at the end of the stride (weight) and establish a rotational axis (swing) at the end of the striding action.
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> > > > > > And what we are talking about is the work off the backside that causes the mass to move forward, the stride doesn't really move the mass forward.
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> > > > > > What we have is a problem with a misunderstanding of when the swing begins. You are not swinging during weight shift or the translation movement, you swing at the end of the movement (become rotational). You can lump the weight and translation movement into the loading portion of the swing (some might call it coiling). Just like someone might load without a translation movement. the translation movement becomes part of the loading and unloading cycle. It's just a different way of creating energy for the swing.
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> > > > > > The real swing starts at toe touch (heel drop), unloading, regardless of what you do to prepare the swing. Stride or no stride they still use the same sequences and achieve a rotational axis.
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> > > > > > There is so much talk about staying back and just rotating, that it's believed weigh shift doesn't work. When in reality it works just as well, just fewer hitters have a pronounced weight shift (mass moving forward), and even fewer right handers have such a move. You see it in lefty's moreso then righties.
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> > > > > > Your not a linear hitter because of your weight shift or translation move, which can be called a linear move, you are linear because of your transfer mechanics (not being rotational at the end of the stride). I think this site has debated this issue many times about the definition of linear and rotational. What is being overlooked is the fact the real swing doesn't begin until toe touch (heel drop). You can still be a rotational hitter, however we want to define rotation. But' by the definitions used at this site rotational vs linear has to so with transfer mechanics.
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> > > > > > So Adiar is wrong, you don't move forward during the swing. You move forward prior to the real swing. Anybody who has studied hitters or hitting knows this to be true.
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> > > > > You said it twice. "The swing doesn't start until toe touch (heel drop)". What do you mean? Toe touch and heel drop are two different times. The swing can't start twice.
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> > > > Hi All
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> > > > The swing always starts with the first movementof the body. The movement of the arms only occurs after heel touch. If you defined the swing as only after heel touch then we should begin all swings with the front heel up and no step would occur.
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> > > > You need the step/movement prior to arm movement to generate the most power as the hips must be involved in the swing process.
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> > > > You can not teach the swing without the feet and the hips and if you can please enlighten me.
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> > > > Dave
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> > > The swing starts in the center. The swing has already started when the heel is pushed down. The swing itself pushes the heel down. The legs have litte to do with the start of the swing. They are reactionary. They do what they do in reaction to the start of the swing. Learn about your center and it'll change your hitting for the better.
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> > > Your statment that the arms only move after heel drop, as evidence of when the swing starts, is irrelevent to the start of the swing. The arms have little to do with the start of the swing.
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> > Teacheman
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> > What is it? You said the arms and legs have nothing to do with the start of the swing and it is the center. Where in the center? The center of your body? The center of your hips?
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> > I should however restate my comments about the arm movement. It should read that the swing does not begin with the hands moving forward it begins with the first movement that generates motion towards (weight shift, linear body movement, rotational body movement) or backwards (loading)from the ball.
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> > IMPO the swing should start from the feet (step or weight shift) and work up but that does not mean that the upper body is not moving (loading) at the same time BUT the hands MUST stay back longer then all body parts below and the shoulder rotation must start after hip rotation (x-factor stretch) to acheive the most powerful swing.
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> > Dave
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> The swing does not start at the feet. The swing starts with a center out ripple much like a rock hitting a pond. It starts in your center which is generally your hips and lower torso. The feet simply provide stability.
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> When I teach I get kids to think of their belly button being the first thing to move. Whether or not video confirms that is arguable. But it is a great cue for a center out swing.
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> As far as the "first movement that generates motion", I disagree with this also. Have you ever seen a hitter check his swing........ a lot of motion........yet no swing.
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> I'm not saying the "preswing" movements are not important. But, they are just that.....preswing....before the swing.
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> The best thing a coach can give a hitter is time. Time to spend reading the pitch. How do you do that? By shortening the swing. Including toe touch, heel drop, first motion, hip cock etc as part of the swing simply leads to a late hitter. All this must be preset before the actual swing. If they are not set on time you have a late hitter.
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> I can guarantee that if your swing trigger thought is "drop the heel" you'll be late against top fastballs. Too much time passes from heel drop to hip action. It has to be the reverse. Hip action and lower torso must push the heel down.

Teacherman

You make some good points (but how to you describe a movement that you can not see and con not confirm. I have been to skill technologies in Phoenix and have seen the movement and rotational motions of all the joints prior to executing a swing. The technology does not lie and it shows that rotational motion to initiate the movement of the bat must begin at the hips, then torso, then shoulders then hands which all maximize rotational speed one after the other to achieve maximum bathead speed. Each part must also start to slow down prior to the next part achieving its maximum speed (energy transfer and kinetic sequencing). If any motion prior(hips, torso, shoulders, arms hands)to the final motion (bathead speed) is reduced in speed the final result is a slower swing.

As you said a check swing is alot of motion but no swing but I say that it is all go until you tell a body part to fight against the need to finish the process. That is why the longer you wait the harder it is to stop your swing. But without getting the swing into the same position consistantly with maximum lower body mechanics you can not achieve maximal results when you allow your hands to come forward.

If you are correct that the ripple out effect for the swing coming from the torso and it goes out to the feet and hands then when the the front foot plants the ripple would then go back up the chain past the center point and up to the hands( throw a rock into water and watch what happens to the ripples as they bounce off the edge) (thus bottom to top after ripple)I will have to check my science but I believe that if the two waves hit the top at the same time they will add up to a larger wave moving the other direction. May need some help here.

Dave