Posted by: Dave (cdpaetkau@telus.net) on Mon Nov 15 11:17:06 2004

>>> He(Adair) states in his book that the body moves forward about 18 inches at 7 mph during the swing. (not before rotation, but during the swing).
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> > > > > > > I have third edition. '18 inches' was cut and '7 mph' was changed to '6 mph' in it
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> > > > > > > I'd like to ask you about your phrase '(not before rotation, but during the swing)'. Isn't it your misunderstanding of his theory? <<<
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> > > > > > > Hi Marlin
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> > > > > > > No, there is no misunderstanding. I have discussed this very point with him in phone calls and by mail. In a paper I sent him, I stated that batters might stride forward as they prepare to swing. However, their forward motion ceased before rotation and they rotated around a stationary axis. He stated that was impossible. For a batter to develop the needed kinetic energy for the swing there must be forward movement of body mass during the swing. He then went on to state in a letter to me that any batter who rotated around stationary axis could not generate enough energy to hit a ball past second base.
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> > > > > > > I am not saying that he still holds that view. However, that was his view in 1990 as expressed in his book and during our phone discussions and was also stated in his letter to me.
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> > > > > > > Jack Mankin
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> > > > > > Thank you for answering me.
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> > > > > > Reading your post and his book, i still think the definition of the swing are different between you and Adair. I guess he regards the stride as a part of the swing and i think his model explains linear transfer method very well.
> > > > > > But he may not know the rotational method. I was a little surprised.
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> > > > > > Thank you
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> > > > > I doubt Adair has actually studied hitters. While you can have weight shift, translation move, you become rotational as the stride ends (toe touch). You can agrue if this translation move provides more energy, but you can't deny it works. It does work, but you must stay coiled during the translation move (not swinging) and then uncoil at the end of the stride (swing).
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> > > > > This is the same agruement of the swing being a combination of weight shift and rotation. You can be very rotational at the end of the stride (weight) and establish a rotational axis (swing) at the end of the striding action.
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> > > > > And what we are talking about is the work off the backside that causes the mass to move forward, the stride doesn't really move the mass forward.
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> > > > > What we have is a problem with a misunderstanding of when the swing begins. You are not swinging during weight shift or the translation movement, you swing at the end of the movement (become rotational). You can lump the weight and translation movement into the loading portion of the swing (some might call it coiling). Just like someone might load without a translation movement. the translation movement becomes part of the loading and unloading cycle. It's just a different way of creating energy for the swing.
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> > > > > The real swing starts at toe touch (heel drop), unloading, regardless of what you do to prepare the swing. Stride or no stride they still use the same sequences and achieve a rotational axis.
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> > > > > There is so much talk about staying back and just rotating, that it's believed weigh shift doesn't work. When in reality it works just as well, just fewer hitters have a pronounced weight shift (mass moving forward), and even fewer right handers have such a move. You see it in lefty's moreso then righties.
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> > > > > Your not a linear hitter because of your weight shift or translation move, which can be called a linear move, you are linear because of your transfer mechanics (not being rotational at the end of the stride). I think this site has debated this issue many times about the definition of linear and rotational. What is being overlooked is the fact the real swing doesn't begin until toe touch (heel drop). You can still be a rotational hitter, however we want to define rotation. But' by the definitions used at this site rotational vs linear has to so with transfer mechanics.
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> > > > > So Adiar is wrong, you don't move forward during the swing. You move forward prior to the real swing. Anybody who has studied hitters or hitting knows this to be true.
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> > > > You said it twice. "The swing doesn't start until toe touch (heel drop)". What do you mean? Toe touch and heel drop are two different times. The swing can't start twice.
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> > > Hi All
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> > > The swing always starts with the first movementof the body. The movement of the arms only occurs after heel touch. If you defined the swing as only after heel touch then we should begin all swings with the front heel up and no step would occur.
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> > > You need the step/movement prior to arm movement to generate the most power as the hips must be involved in the swing process.
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> > > You can not teach the swing without the feet and the hips and if you can please enlighten me.
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> > > Dave
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> > The swing starts in the center. The swing has already started when the heel is pushed down. The swing itself pushes the heel down. The legs have litte to do with the start of the swing. They are reactionary. They do what they do in reaction to the start of the swing. Learn about your center and it'll change your hitting for the better.
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> > Your statment that the arms only move after heel drop, as evidence of when the swing starts, is irrelevent to the start of the swing. The arms have little to do with the start of the swing.
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> Hi All
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> The swing always starts with the first movementof the body. The movement of the arms only occurs after heel touch. If you defined the swing as only after heel touch then we should begin all swings with the front heel up and no step would occur.
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> You need the step/movement prior to arm movement to generate the most power as the hips must be involved in the swing process.
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> You can not teach the swing without the feet and the hips and if you can please enlighten me.
>
> Dave
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> I guess you don't understand no stride hitters.
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> """If you defined the swing as only after heel touch then we should begin all swings with the front heel up and no step would occur."""
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> I define the swing including the toe heel sequence, unloading. The swing itself takes .150 or approx 5 frames. You can check swing during the first portion of the swing, .50, leaving .100 for the swing.
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> So when the heel plants you are into the swing, last .100, committed to the swing, unloaded.
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> The shoulders and arms shouldn't move until toe touch, they can be moving before the heel actually plants (rotating into foot plant), Just as long as you have not committed prior to toe touch, swinging and striding.
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> Adair doesn't understand some basic hitting instruction. You lose power, quickness, and batspeed by swinging and striding. Not to mention a host of other issues. The shoulder do not open diring the stride, no matter how close the stride ends and the swing begins, the shoulders are still closed during the stride (or mass moving forward).
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> Jack understand when the real swing begins as the stride ends, establish the stationary axis.
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> Really there are a host of other issues if combine the two actions. The biggest problem would be swinging around the spine or the swing plane.
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> But back to your question, yes all you need to do is get on the toe and drop the heel, no stride hitters. It is hitting simplified and perhaps the best way to develop mechanics. All you have to focus on is the unloading (swing).

HI Shawn

I do understand pure no stride hitting is also different then not taking a stride as pure no stride hitting prior to heel drop as having shifted the weight to about 75% onto the front side. HOWEVER if at heel touch (before the shoulders open and the hands move) if the feet and or hips have not gotten into the correct position (back knee drive inward, back heel off the ground, NO back foot inward rotation, rotation of the hips (x factor stretch) and weight shift of 75% to the front side) then the SWING will not be as effective as it could be.

You must allow your hips to get ahead of your shoulders to generate a powerful swing but that is a whole other issue. The swing is not just the motion of the hands to move the bat but the motions that govern and control all actions that lead up to it. You are correct that the ability to move the bat towards its target is not during the stride BUT the stride is an integral part of how that movement is executed and therefore since it effects the result it is part of the process.

Dave