Posted by: Hitter () on Mon Nov 1 09:01:32 2004

What am I missing here? Where in Jim's post (I don't know Jim) is there ANY mention of linear mechanics, or inference that it is a preferable means to hit?
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> > > And anyone who doesn't think Teacherman is a rotational mechanics advocate is NOT paying attention.
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> > > As I read Jim's post, it seems clear to me that the question is isolated to the application of THT as a principle of rotational mechanics. I agree that youth instruction is largely linear, I think a significant percentage of HS and College players have a linear bent to their swings. Even true in the minors. MLB is almost exclusively rotational mechanics and CHP. That alone would seem to settle the big question pretty eloquently. Natural selection works.
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> > > But that doesn't mean that there isn't variation within the "rotational" camp. Someone like McGwire set up a long way from the plate, and treated most pitches as middle/out. Bonds "bellies up," and treats all pitches as middle/in. Probably the two extremes in MLB - most are somewhere in-between.
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> > > I think it would be great to have a non-emotional discussion on the THT question. I know I would learn from that. Emotions run pretty high, and it may not be possible, but I'd sure like to attempt it, because I'm trying to learn here. (BTW, I am NOT a member at Setpro. I AM involved at Hitting-Mechanics as a moderator. I am, however, apolitical. I just want to understand how to hit, and how to teach hitting. I have been positively influenced by Jack, and by Batspeed. I would post in this forum far more often if it were real-time. While I understand what caused it not to be, I find it a cumbersome basis to learn and exchange ideas. I do spend some time every week or so and review a larger segment of material at once.)
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> > > I DEFINITELY recognize the intellectual property and differentiation Jack has built around THT. And I respect that. I respect the rights of others to do the same thing. Since I am NOT a lemming, it occurs to me that good ideas / concepts can come from more than one source. And like many in my position (volunteer coach w/ a passion for hitting), I'm trying to UNDERSTAND how the swing really works, not just accept how someone (any ONE person) tells me it works. So please bear with me.
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> > > Here are a couple of things I don't understand:
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> > > 1) Why anyone would confuse THT and scap loading, unless the point is simply obfuscaption. Scap loading - as indicated in the name - is a LOADING process. THT is an UNloading process. Torque is something you apply to swing, not to prepare to swing.
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> > > In and of themselves, this does not make either right or wrong. It DOES make them different.
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> > > 2) How it can be conclusively demonstrated that body adjustment to get on plane as the shoulders rotate can not attain - at least in SOME cases - the position often attributed as an EXCLUSIVE result of THT.
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> > > I do not question in the slightest the position of the body, arms, bat as elite hitters slot the elbow and attain "connection." It looks virtually the same in every top hitter. But I have a lot of clips where I personally see no evidence of top hand involvement in attaining the position. It appears to me more a by-product of posture and strong hip/torso/shoulder rotation. Could be my limitation or inability to see, and I freely acknowledge that.
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> > > IS the contending that the MLB "connection" position (slotted elbow into CHP) is universally applied and ALWAYS attained with the top hand "torqueing" movement? Because I'm not convinced that IS universal.
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> > > I guess my question is basically one of cause and effect. I THINK I believe that a hitter can attain the THT position demonstrated by John Elliot on The Final Arc DVD simply as a consequence of "drop and tilt" and shoulder rotation happening as the elbow is slotting.
> > > Some may attain it with the top hand, but I think others do so as a consequence of rotating and slotting.
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> > > Set me straight, please.
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> > > Regards,
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> > > Scott
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> > Mr. James,
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> > My agenda is fairly simple and as others have done, you failed to address (and as a scout/instructor no less), how do you know what you are "seeing" that brings the hands back is THT and not another action such as scap loading or a simple back shoulder shrug action?
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> > How do you know it's not THT causing the actions you describe. If your skeptic on the application of THT and it's priciples, what good would it do to explain it, if you can't see it??
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> > As in the above post, most of the actions you describe will happen naturally if you are applying THT. Mankin has said the forces involved are back toward the catcher and the initial forces applied by the top hand are away from the pitcher and not forward. So if bringing the hands back applies the correct forces to the bat then your on your way. The initial forces acting on the bat in the rotational swing is away from the body and not forward, forwad comes second.
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> > Mankin has explained this many times. Like I said very few understand the rotatoinal swing as Jack does. He identified the rotational forces at work in the swing which he calls transfer mechanics.
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> > I don't know where you summised I am anti-rotational and a linear proponent. I made it abundantly clear rotation is the Pro way.
> > Just as it is equally clear that a can view a rotational swing with CHP, hips leading hands etc., minus any THT but with hands being brought back via another action.
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> > It seems you are caught up in not understanding the forces at work. Again, so be it if bringing the hands back applies the correct forces at/after initiation or scap loading, or just having an elevated rear elbow. Jack has explained the forces at work in great detail on not only THT but how to work with rotation and not against rotation, transfer mechanics.
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> > Again, you opted to go off on a tangent, deviated away from answering what, as a Pro Scout/instructor "you" look for that "tells you" the hands coming back is directly because of THT and not some other action.
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> > I don't think anyone is dodging your questions. You just want to call it something different. I don't think you understand the swing as Jack does yet. Maybe that should be your first goal before you try to rename the mechanics involved.
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> Hitter,
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> As it is clear there are now "many" different actions as posters continue to address here in regard to THT, would you describe "one" of the actions of THT as it has been described on this site by Jack as pulling back the top hand "similarly to pulling back the string on a bow to shoot an arrow?" (Repeat: that is not "my" description that is Jack's). Assuming you would agree with that as a THT description let's use that as my main problem with posters making statements that "so and so" didn't use THT when that action described would be very, yes, "very" difficult to "see" in a TV viewed swing. I haven't renamed or even attempted to rename THT. All I have been doing is giving other actions that could be "seen" as reasons hands (top and bottom) are being pulled back toward the catcher. Most times I simply said "any other action" could be used and questioned how any one can be sure THT is the "only" action involved? You want me to say it could be THT? OK- I agree! It could be THT! Now, will you or any others come back and say it "could be" another action? Is THT the "only"...repeat..."only" action that can create a similar "look"???
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> That you fail to acknowledge "another action" could create the same "look" only tells me "you" refuse to look beyond THT yet...I'm the one acting narrow minded? Hmmm?
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> It took me some time to back track into Jack's post but here is this:
> from a response "Jack made" to a similar question posted on pinpointing the physical applications of THT:
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> “I would guess that most posters who say they can see THT being applied are referring to the pre-launch phase of applying THT. During pre-launch torque, the hands start a good distance from the back-shoulder (like Bonds or Sosa) and bat-head acceleration occurs before shoulder rotation. Even the most skeptic observer should be able to see that the pulling back of the forearm (and thus top-hand) applies torque that causes the bat-head to be accelerated back. I agree with you that THT is hard to see once the hands are at the back-shoulder and the bat is in the swing plane. Even though the pulling back of the top-hand continues during initiation, shoulder rotation is accelerating the hands (as a unit) around toward the pitcher. Therefore if the hands (as a unit) are rotating in one direction, it is hard to see, or understood by many, how the top-hand is applying a force in the opposite direction (back toward the catcher). Regardless of what muscles or mechanics it feels like you are using, if it results in you pulling the top-hand back around a slower moving bottom-hand, you are applying torque that is accelerating the bat-head.
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> Jack Mankin
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> So Hitter and others... Jack even states it IS "hard to see" and I certainly can't argue that Jack understands his own THT principles. THT may well be all you proponents say it is. My still biggest problem is when posters begin saying how easily they "saw" Pujols/ Rolen on and on, fail to use THT when IMO, it is just not that easy to make that determination on TV.
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> Further, when THT is being highlighted as a means by which to "beat great pitching" and or the REASON the Cardinals lost and nobody else but I said "I think not" that is when THT starts becoming much more than I believe Jack even thinks it is? But he will have to answer for himself when he returns.
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> OK, because none of you at this point have responded to whether Ichiro is Rotational or Linear, let me ask this:
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> When Ichiro brings his hands back (he does so conclusively and enough so that his # on his back is in full view)in all of your opinions, is he using THT (pulling back the bow string TH to catcher)to create that movement or...some other action you can also explain?
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> Hitter? Marty? Pro Scout(s)? Teacherman? Anyone?
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> Good Night and yes, this is a great site!
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Hi,

Lots of good stuff. First let me say that it's wrong to say the Cardinals lost because they didn't use THT. Don't take those type of posts the wrong way.

Using Bonds and Sosa as an example, One hitter who has evolved into one of the best average and power hitters, and the other the only one to hit over 60 three times.

I would agree it's easy to see THT being applied as they prepare the launch. They both somewhat pull the top hand back and into the launching position. I can't say howmuch actual arcing of the bat happens during this preparation action, only that you can see them pulling back with the top hand. Mankin has also called this sweeping the bat back, which doesn't involve any real arcing of the bat. I have a clip of Bonds and Sosa if you want it that clearly shows the actions involved.

Regardless of their pre launch actions, which I might add they both take the hands to the rear shoulder and don't start away from the back shoulder, which aids in THT application. The top hand clearly loops around the bottom hand at/as initiation takes place. I call it the top hand loop. Remember that THT is working with the same actions involved with rotation. So when rotation starts, initiation, the bat is going to start arcing.Remember in THT the top hand using the bottom hand to loop around it first, so the bottom hand stays back. You can't do this by driving the hands forward. BHT torque thens starts to kick in as the THT is redirected into a forward force.

I don't think it's hard to understand the mechanics behind THT. I think you should try to understand it as Jack does and then if you want to say it's scap loading, it's just pulling the hands back, it's just lowering the elbow that causes the actions, that is fine. We don't have to agree on what is the cause and affect, it just helps if you can see what Jack is talking about.

Hitter