Posted by: () on Sun Oct 31 21:20:03 2004

Interesting stuff guys but still unanswered responses on identifying specifics in THT.
> > > > Yeah there is a lot of questions here but that is only because many questions still remain on THT that none of you have yet to definetively answer.
> > > >
> > > > This response from Bert in my reference to TV announcers discussing Bellhorn?s improved swing:
> > > >
> > > > ?And don't talk about the TV commentators not mentioning tht. These commentators are from the ?old school? (linear), they played in another era before Jack came along.?
> > > >
> > > > Bert- the announcers were sharing the feedback they received from and were giving credit to, the Red Sox hitting coach who is from ?TODAY?S? era. That coach didn?t mention THT in helping Bellhorn with creating more power in his swing? That coach of the ?current? 2004 World Champs only stated he taught Bellhorn to bring his hands back (load up) which as I REPEAT?any player can do without necessarily applying THT. You nor anyone else on this site can argue that the act/movement of bringing the hands back ?can be? accomplished by means other than THT. So the question remains?
> > > > What do you, Marty, The Pro Scout or any poster ?see? that definitively tells you it is absolutely THT being applied instead of another absolute action?
> > > >
> > > > From Marty:
> > > > ?My coach says ?good top hand torque stops good pitching?.? Please have your coach come on board and explain how THT helps a hitter ?outsmart? a pitcher? THT may improve the power of a swing via increased batspeed, but THT in and of itself, does NOT beat better, smarter pitching (period). Proof of that is we know even the poster boys you mention on this site for THT strike out. If a hitter applied absolute THT and still missed the pitch ...why did that happen? Pssst...they got fooled/outsmarted by the pitcher. It had nothing to do with THT.
> > > >
> > > > From Coach Wills:
> > > > ?This is a settled issue, at least in my neck of the woods. I don't know who Teacherman or his credentials but in the league I coach in, rotational mechanics such as tht & chp rule. Teacherman, come out to Waco sometime and we'll give you a good demonstration of top hand torque.?
> > > >
> > > > Coach Wills, forget the demo, tell me what you ?see? that absolutely proves ?hands coming back and hands staying back? is ONLY from THT being applied and NOT some other action that can demo the same thing? If you can?t come back and state your case then ?nothing is settled on THT?. Rotational mechanics are settled as the best mechanics for a swing and you should have stopped there.
> > > >
> > > > Ralph- do your Pro MLB teams/coaches specifically ask that you look for prospects demonstrating THT or do they simply stress the importance of batspeed and rotational mechanics.
> > > > Because you can ?see? CHP, and proper rotational mechanics and NOT know it is being applied by THT. Yes, we have ?heard? from you as a pro scout but you have not demonstrated as a Pro Scout how you ?see? THT is being applied by your prospects? You believing increased batspeed is generated via THT/BHT is your prerogative. Nobody owes you or Jack an apology for their prerogative. You didn?t convince me via your response that it is an absolute you can report on, only that you believe THT is the cause of great batspeed. Maybe you can copy & paste to this site some of your written scout evals to show us where you substantiate and evaluate that THT is being applied by one of your prospects. Can your eval be fool proof to ensure what you believe isn?t really some other action other than THT?
> > > >
> > > > Hey guys, if THT is that well know in MLB coaching circles why aren't we lay folks involved in baseball hearing about it except on this site? Why the hush hush? Why wouldn't announcers and Hitting coaches mention it if it out there all over the profession?
> > > >
> > > > Again, name one, two, ANY MLB Hitting instructors (NOT SCOUTS who believe in it but have yet to define how they see it either) but tell me/us the ACTUAL Pro MLB coaches who are teaching and using the phrase THT and its principles to support your stances. If and when you name these MLB coaches that are telling their scouts to ?look for THT? prospects, please have them also provide ?their? definitive to demonstrate they ?see? THT being applied. Let them answer for me the absolutes they ?see? to endorse THT is the mechanic, and, that it is not some other action that separates the top half from bottom half and yes, the great hitters from the average hitters.
> > > >
> > > > If any of you agree it is more ?feel than see? then how can you come on this site and state so emphatically that Pujols, Rolen and apparently the entire Cardinal team either forgot or failed to use THT? Were you "feeling" their swings?
> > > >
> > > > Beating a dead horse? Broken record?
> > > > Maybe but...You can pull up any number of post on this site where Jack and or one of you can pinpoint a proper mechanic or flaw we can ?see?. I.E. elbow in the slot, palms up/down on contact, flexion/extension of arms legs, front side firm up, heel drop etc.. These are all movements we can ?see? and thus draw a conclusion from. None of you seem to be able to verbally do the same with THT. Just saying the hands are coming back does not prove THT is the cause. Yes, it can be one way to bring the top half back but is it the ONLY way? Yes or No?
> > > >
> > > > When you can finally provide a visual we can see with THT to prove it is the only way then and only then will all of you THT proponents, be able to move away from this argument and ?conclusively? promote THT. We will then all be able to say ?see it...there it is...right there!?
> > > >
> > > > Until then I find it ridiculous to ask and expect an apology just because someone else doesn't believe in the same theory that you do.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Jim, I won't speak for the other scouts, but I, as a scout and hitting instructor for an American League team can speak for myself and the organization I represent. It's quite simple: we look for hitters with power and we view rotational mechanics such as top hand torque and the circular hand path as the key components of rotational mechanics.
> > > I will not debate the pros and cons (if any "cons" exist) of these principles because I work for my organization, not for you. Now, if you ever get signed by my organization and our paths cross, certainly I will do my job to provide you with quality instruction on how to execute rotational principles.
> > > The question may arise as to why a scout would even visit an internet site. Again, speaking for myself only, I encounter many hitters who have potential. They have survived throughout high school and college on linear mechanics. My job is to prepare them for the Major Leagues (this is where top hand torque, bottom hand torque and circular hand path come in).Part of me understanding where these misguided hitters acquired these hitting deficiencies involves me needing to research the sources of these misguided principles (throw hands to ball, knob to ball, fence drill and other linear notions). Of course,some of these sources happen to be on the internet.
> > > My suggestion to you is that if your agenda is to seek "truth" the direction of the future of pro hitters is top hand torque, circular hand path, etc. Of course, is your agenda is to defend linear principles & want to pick a fight with a "pro-rotationist", I don't get paid by you or anyone else to do that, I get paid to find, sign and instruct prospects.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > What am I missing here? Where in Jim's post (I don't know Jim) is there ANY mention of linear mechanics, or inference that it is a preferable means to hit?
> >
> > And anyone who doesn't think Teacherman is a rotational mechanics advocate is NOT paying attention.
> >
> > As I read Jim's post, it seems clear to me that the question is isolated to the application of THT as a principle of rotational mechanics. I agree that youth instruction is largely linear, I think a significant percentage of HS and College players have a linear bent to their swings. Even true in the minors. MLB is almost exclusively rotational mechanics and CHP. That alone would seem to settle the big question pretty eloquently. Natural selection works.
> >
> >
> > But that doesn't mean that there isn't variation within the "rotational" camp. Someone like McGwire set up a long way from the plate, and treated most pitches as middle/out. Bonds "bellies up," and treats all pitches as middle/in. Probably the two extremes in MLB - most are somewhere in-between.
> >
> >
> > I think it would be great to have a non-emotional discussion on the THT question. I know I would learn from that. Emotions run pretty high, and it may not be possible, but I'd sure like to attempt it, because I'm trying to learn here. (BTW, I am NOT a member at Setpro. I AM involved at Hitting-Mechanics as a moderator. I am, however, apolitical. I just want to understand how to hit, and how to teach hitting. I have been positively influenced by Jack, and by Batspeed. I would post in this forum far more often if it were real-time. While I understand what caused it not to be, I find it a cumbersome basis to learn and exchange ideas. I do spend some time every week or so and review a larger segment of material at once.)
> >
> >
> > I DEFINITELY recognize the intellectual property and differentiation Jack has built around THT. And I respect that. I respect the rights of others to do the same thing. Since I am NOT a lemming, it occurs to me that good ideas / concepts can come from more than one source. And like many in my position (volunteer coach w/ a passion for hitting), I'm trying to UNDERSTAND how the swing really works, not just accept how someone (any ONE person) tells me it works. So please bear with me.
> >
> >
> > Here are a couple of things I don't understand:
> >
> > 1) Why anyone would confuse THT and scap loading, unless the point is simply obfuscaption. Scap loading - as indicated in the name - is a LOADING process. THT is an UNloading process. Torque is something you apply to swing, not to prepare to swing.
> >
> > In and of themselves, this does not make either right or wrong. It DOES make them different.
> >
> > 2) How it can be conclusively demonstrated that body adjustment to get on plane as the shoulders rotate can not attain - at least in SOME cases - the position often attributed as an EXCLUSIVE result of THT.
> >
> > I do not question in the slightest the position of the body, arms, bat as elite hitters slot the elbow and attain "connection." It looks virtually the same in every top hitter. But I have a lot of clips where I personally see no evidence of top hand involvement in attaining the position. It appears to me more a by-product of posture and strong hip/torso/shoulder rotation. Could be my limitation or inability to see, and I freely acknowledge that.
> >
> > IS the contending that the MLB "connection" position (slotted elbow into CHP) is universally applied and ALWAYS attained with the top hand "torqueing" movement? Because I'm not convinced that IS universal.
> >
> >
> > I guess my question is basically one of cause and effect. I THINK I believe that a hitter can attain the THT position demonstrated by John Elliot on The Final Arc DVD simply as a consequence of "drop and tilt" and shoulder rotation happening as the elbow is slotting.
> > Some may attain it with the top hand, but I think others do so as a consequence of rotating and slotting.
> >
> > Set me straight, please.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Scott
> >
> > Hey Jim and Scott,
>
> I'll SHOW you what i consider THT. and if it's not what Jack had in mind then i'll coin the phrase WHT(wrist hand torque.. :-))
>
> Go to this website and pull up the the six frames of Bond's swing:
> WWW.USATODAY.com/sports/gallery/bonds/flash.htm
>
> OK, frame 3 he's in the launch position(actually his bat isn't on plane yet,so he's a little late there) What action would he take to get on plane? anyway get out your protractor and measure the angle between Bond's bat and his front forearm... i get about 70 degrees. now go to frame 4 with your protractor... i get close to 110 degrees. gentlemen this is top hand torque.
>
> Keep in mind that it takes two to torque. the rotation of the front shoulder facilitates the uncocking of the bottom hand wrist which is pulling in the opposite direction of the top hand.(the uncocking of the bottom hand wrist is like casting with a fishing pole. when you're getting ready to cast and the pole is over your shoulder your wrist is cocked. when you whip the pole forward you uncock your wrist as the pole travels over and forward.}
>
> The top hand is being rotated back(Jack's being pulled back} by the forearm muscles rotating the hand.(into the palm up position) this is the opposite force on the bat from the uncocking of the bottom wrist.
> i can lower my back elbow and not apply THT. but lowering it sure makes it alot easier.
>
> Look at Bond's hands in the two frames. they haven't gone anywhere. the only action is the front pull of the shoulder(loading the front scap) lowering of the back elbow, raising the front elbow to stay on plane(he's much closer to being on plane now) and the other thing that has occured in the upper torso is THT.
>
> Why do most of the power hitter have strong forearms? because they want to be cocking and uncocking and rotating the wrist with as much force as possible. even as the hands jump off the merry-go-round and the bat head flies around their still applying force to the bat. now it becomes
> BHT... at that point the top wrist uncocks as the front shoulder is still rotating and pulling on the knob of the bat. no argument on the validity of BHT why the problem with THT? in order to apply these two torques the hands DO NOT have to grip the bat to death... i teach loose.
>
> Check out the position of the knob of Bond's bat in frame 6 just after contact... it's slid under the center of his wrist. that's how loose his hands are at contact. it also avoids wrist binding.
>
> I suppose one could train themselves to detect the speed of the bat as the back elbow hits the side. this would give a clue if the batter was using THT, but it's all relative i guess...
>
> Did anyone notice that frame 2 is really frame 1??? if you did you probably understand rotational pretty good and have looked at alot of clips...
>
> Hey Scott i've tried to get on your site twice but when i register it doesn't compute???? anyway nice to see you over here and at ETEAMZ.
>
> I hope this has made some sense, Regards, Rich

Hey Rich:

I ran Bonds's swing through RVP software, whic among other things, has a measurement tool to determine exactly the kind of thing you are seeing.

I couldn't load the USA Today (Gwynn narrated) clip into RVP, because it is flash only, and I couldn't turn it into an AVI. I did look at 3 other Bonds clips, and found them virtually identical

First, it must be understood that there are 3 frames (on 60fps video) between "frame" 3 and "frame" 4 on the USA Today (Gwynn narrated) video. Impact is actually 1 frame FURTHER in the swing (at 60fps). I know this, because RVP uses 60fps on all the provided MLB clips, including Bonds, and I counted the frames. I also timed them - about 7/100s of a second for the four frames.

I loaded those 4 frames in RVP simultaneously, and can send you a "snapshot" of all four frames in a quadrant view if you are interested (email me at ssarginson@earthlink.net).

I then used the measurement / math tool to assess the wrist position you are describing in each frame.

At ROUGHLY the position of frame 3 in the USA Today sequence, the angle is 118 degrees (I believe that if you measure from the middle of the elbow in the USA Today frame, you will see it is above 90 degrees even there - hard to do with the elbow pad, though). In the next frame, 125 degrees. In the next frame, which is (roughly) equivalent to frame 4 in the USA Today clip, it is 118 degrees. At impact, it is 163 degrees.

The point is, the angle declines in the swing until the last frame before contact. Make of that what you will - frankly, I'm not sure what it means. Please email me if you'd like the quadrant jpg.

Regards,

Scott