Posted by: Hitter () on Sun Oct 31 11:53:57 2004

Interesting stuff guys but still unanswered responses on identifying specifics in THT.
> > Yeah there is a lot of questions here but that is only because many questions still remain on THT that none of you have yet to definetively answer.
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> > This response from Bert in my reference to TV announcers discussing Bellhorn’s improved swing:
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> > “And don't talk about the TV commentators not mentioning tht. These commentators are from the ‘old school’ (linear), they played in another era before Jack came along.”
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> > Bert- the announcers were sharing the feedback they received from and were giving credit to, the Red Sox hitting coach who is from “TODAY’S” era. That coach didn’t mention THT in helping Bellhorn with creating more power in his swing? That coach of the “current” 2004 World Champs only stated he taught Bellhorn to bring his hands back (load up) which as I REPEAT…any player can do without necessarily applying THT. You nor anyone else on this site can argue that the act/movement of bringing the hands back “can be” accomplished by means other than THT. So the question remains?
> > What do you, Marty, The Pro Scout or any poster “see” that definitively tells you it is absolutely THT being applied instead of another absolute action?
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> > From Marty:
> > “My coach says ‘good top hand torque stops good pitching’.” Please have your coach come on board and explain how THT helps a hitter “outsmart” a pitcher? THT may improve the power of a swing via increased batspeed, but THT in and of itself, does NOT beat better, smarter pitching (period). Proof of that is we know even the poster boys you mention on this site for THT strike out. If a hitter applied absolute THT and still missed the pitch ...why did that happen? Pssst...they got fooled/outsmarted by the pitcher. It had nothing to do with THT.
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> > From Coach Wills:
> > “This is a settled issue, at least in my neck of the woods. I don't know who Teacherman or his credentials but in the league I coach in, rotational mechanics such as tht & chp rule. Teacherman, come out to Waco sometime and we'll give you a good demonstration of top hand torque.”
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> > Coach Wills, forget the demo, tell me what you “see” that absolutely proves “hands coming back and hands staying back” is ONLY from THT being applied and NOT some other action that can demo the same thing? If you can’t come back and state your case then ”nothing is settled on THT”. Rotational mechanics are settled as the best mechanics for a swing and you should have stopped there.
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> > Ralph- do your Pro MLB teams/coaches specifically ask that you look for prospects demonstrating THT or do they simply stress the importance of batspeed and rotational mechanics.
> > Because you can “see” CHP, and proper rotational mechanics and NOT know it is being applied by THT. Yes, we have “heard” from you as a pro scout but you have not demonstrated as a Pro Scout how you “see” THT is being applied by your prospects? You believing increased batspeed is generated via THT/BHT is your prerogative. Nobody owes you or Jack an apology for their prerogative. You didn’t convince me via your response that it is an absolute you can report on, only that you believe THT is the cause of great batspeed. Maybe you can copy & paste to this site some of your written scout evals to show us where you substantiate and evaluate that THT is being applied by one of your prospects. Can your eval be fool proof to ensure what you believe isn’t really some other action other than THT?
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> > Hey guys, if THT is that well know in MLB coaching circles why aren't we lay folks involved in baseball hearing about it except on this site? Why the hush hush? Why wouldn't announcers and Hitting coaches mention it if it out there all over the profession?
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> > Again, name one, two, ANY MLB Hitting instructors (NOT SCOUTS who believe in it but have yet to define how they see it either) but tell me/us the ACTUAL Pro MLB coaches who are teaching and using the phrase THT and its principles to support your stances. If and when you name these MLB coaches that are telling their scouts to “look for THT” prospects, please have them also provide “their” definitive to demonstrate they “see” THT being applied. Let them answer for me the absolutes they “see” to endorse THT is the mechanic, and, that it is not some other action that separates the top half from bottom half and yes, the great hitters from the average hitters.
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> > If any of you agree it is more “feel than see” then how can you come on this site and state so emphatically that Pujols, Rolen and apparently the entire Cardinal team either forgot or failed to use THT? Were you "feeling" their swings?
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> > Beating a dead horse? Broken record?
> > Maybe but...You can pull up any number of post on this site where Jack and or one of you can pinpoint a proper mechanic or flaw we can “see”. I.E. elbow in the slot, palms up/down on contact, flexion/extension of arms legs, front side firm up, heel drop etc.. These are all movements we can “see” and thus draw a conclusion from. None of you seem to be able to verbally do the same with THT. Just saying the hands are coming back does not prove THT is the cause. Yes, it can be one way to bring the top half back but is it the ONLY way? Yes or No?
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> > When you can finally provide a visual we can see with THT to prove it is the only way then and only then will all of you THT proponents, be able to move away from this argument and “conclusively” promote THT. We will then all be able to say “see it...there it is...right there!”
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> > Until then I find it ridiculous to ask and expect an apology just because someone else doesn't believe in the same theory that you do.
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> Jim, I won't speak for the other scouts, but I, as a scout and hitting instructor for an American League team can speak for myself and the organization I represent. It's quite simple: we look for hitters with power and we view rotational mechanics such as top hand torque and the circular hand path as the key components of rotational mechanics.
> I will not debate the pros and cons (if any "cons" exist) of these principles because I work for my organization, not for you. Now, if you ever get signed by my organization and our paths cross, certainly I will do my job to provide you with quality instruction on how to execute rotational principles.
> The question may arise as to why a scout would even visit an internet site. Again, speaking for myself only, I encounter many hitters who have potential. They have survived throughout high school and college on linear mechanics. My job is to prepare them for the Major Leagues (this is where top hand torque, bottom hand torque and circular hand path come in).Part of me understanding where these misguided hitters acquired these hitting deficiencies involves me needing to research the sources of these misguided principles (throw hands to ball, knob to ball, fence drill and other linear notions). Of course,some of these sources happen to be on the internet.
> My suggestion to you is that if your agenda is to seek "truth" the direction of the future of pro hitters is top hand torque, circular hand path, etc. Of course, is your agenda is to defend linear principles & want to pick a fight with a "pro-rotationist", I don't get paid by you or anyone else to do that, I get paid to find, sign and instruct prospects.

Ah a skeptic,

If you don't understand THT why are you so skeptic about it's application. There are principles for applying THT that Jack has described in his findings. One is his a high back elbow, you can't apply THT with a low back elbow. The height of the back elbow in ML hitters is usually high. It doesn't have to be overly high, somewhere around shoulder level or just below. The top hand must loop around the bottom hand at initiation with a higher back elbow. Some might say it's the lowering of the back elbow that creates the loop, I think it's a combination of both principles and having a high back elbow aids THT.

Another thing not talked about and an over sight on Jack's part is the position of the back forearm. It is level with the ground at initiation.

So one key point to identifying THT is the height of the back elbow and it's positioning. It's not hard to see this positioning and this positioning limits the actions that flow from the launch position if the forces applied at initiation are rotational. You could ruin it by by being linear out of this position, either by being linear with the upperbody or not launching the swing with the lowerbody.

Jack's findings on the forces involved in the swing are ground breaking. It adresses many things such as the post above about hitters trying to hit with linear principles. It adresses the physics of the rotational swing and the mechanics involved. You can't mix and match linear and rotational unless we are talking about the amount of weight shift. You can't teach linear principles (upperbody) with rotational principles (lowerbody, hips) and expect to have good transfer mechanics.

The problem here is to few of you really understands the swing as Jack does. If you started out by trying to understand what he is saying about swing mechanics, you would see the principles in the ML swing yourself. This goes for THT and BHT.

There have been many who have treid to discredit Jacks finding with lot's of cheap talk over at setpro. A guy who doesn't work with hitters or fully understands the principles at work.

How would you know if THT was applied unless you understand the swing as Jack does? Do you understand transfer mechanics?

For years it was believed that a higher back elbow develops more batspeed. What Jack has done is clarified the reasoning behind that theory and given the mechanics behind that theory. He has explained the mechanics involved in developing more bat speed with a high back elbow, and I might add taken it to another level of understanding. He has given you the mechanics involved in the rotational swing, not the linear swing. None of his information with mesh well with the linear theories.

The baseball world of theories on the swing should be thankful for Jack's findings on the baseball swing. It helps to cut through all the information on who is right when you can see Jack's principles right before your eyes while looking at the ML swing. This usually doesn't happen, most instructions don't match up with what you see. As in do we teach what we see.

I would suggest you watch Barry Bonds and Sosa's transfer mechanics to better understand Jack's principles. You will have a clearer picture of THT, BHT, and the rotational swing. Yow will then be thankful for Jack's ground breaking information on swing mechanics. It helps to understand the swing itself, but anybody can see it by listening to what Jack is saying about the swing.