Posted by: RQL () on Thu Oct 21 10:33:55 2004

>>> I can define it........I'm just not going to give it to you.
> > > >
> > > > Setpro.com <<<
> > > >
> > > > Hi Teacherman
> > > >
> > > > If you do have the knowledge and ability to define the term and are truly interested in advancing coaches’ and players’ understanding of the baseball swing, one can only speculate your reasons for keeping a clear definition of “bow-arch” behind closed doors.
> > > >
> > > > Jack Mankin
> > > >
> > >
> > > >> I have just spent the last three hours reading many, many posts on "setpro.com", and I must say I am appalled at the commentary provided by the "experts" on on what appears to be two sides (or more) on the issue of creating bat speed. I am here for only one thing... to help my son get the most he can out of his swing. I don't care what you call the various mechanics of the swing or even if two body vector mechanics closely approximates a swing or not (and yes, I too have an electrical engineering degree and design control systems). All I care about is understanding the steps involved in creating a powerful swing and being able to translate that into language that my son can understand and execute. If all of you guys can't get off your high horses and explain the concepts in terms that we can understand then everything you are doing will be for naught because no one will listen (even if they understand). Whether Jack's terms are correct or not, or even whether this theories are right or not, I cannot argue since I simply don't know enough. But I do know what I see, and I see my son incorporating elements of Jack's concepts in his swing and getting great results. Time will tell, but all of you (Paul, Brain, "teacherman", Jack, etc.) really need to understand the concept of "who is the customer"... and that's me and people like me that are looking for answers.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Jerry
> >
> > Jerry,
> >
> > Good luck on your quest to learn the swing. Unlike golf research, which is fueled by money from adults who pay money for golf lessons, baseball has no such counterpart. There are a few people here and there who study the swing (such as here and setpro), but as a fellow control system scientist I can tell you that the state of baseball research is very limited indeed. You've basically got to sift through all of the information yourself to understand what you need to know to teach your son. The bad news is that it takes a long time to do it. I'm going on 5 years now, and I now just feel like I have a sound understanding of what constitutes solid swing mechanics.
> >
> > Feel free to contact me if you want some advice on how to shorten the process.
> >
> > -JJA
> >
>
> In my opinion it is not really that complicated if you focus on the right stuff. I coach 7 & 8 year olds and I can tell you that within days they caught on to tht. If an 8 year old can learn it quickly then anyone can.But you have to be focused. You can't be trying to teach contradictory systems. For example, the best that I can determine, this flail and bow arch stuff is linear-based and tht/bht is rotation-based. Therefore, what sense would it make to try teaching rotation while at the same time trying to teach linear?
> Of course one has to decide which source of info has the most credibility. From what I have seen at this site, setpro, epstein, Huggens and other sites, Jack is the one who has done the research, and Jack is the guy all the coaches out there are talking about. Case closed.

I have not been to setpro in years ,I thought it was closed however I will try to describe what [Bow ARCH and bow arch bow mean to me.]1st bow arch bow is a pitching point that I heard setpro refer to as when the pitcher lifts his front leg he bows his upper body then as his arm is coming back and about to come forward the back arches up as in a loading process to then come forward and throw at which point the body then bows again,in pitching thus called bow arch bow.
In hitting the bow is when we are loading or coiling and we bend or[tilt]at the hips and as we swing and the lead leg straightens we tilt back more up right[arch].The bent leg when we stride has us bowed and the hips opening and lead leg firming up allows us to arch as we rotate.Try standing straight the whole time from before load or staying bowed or bent the whole time even through follow thru.
It is a correct evaluation of the swing process but is it different than what Jack has taughtIMO NO!
You can argue all you want, but Jack and Setpro know the swing inside and out,what I get out of the different ideas of both is a more rounded way of looking at the swing,when I can see the same thing from different perspectives the exact same way with the same result I feel more confident that this is the real answer.