Posted by: Teacherman () on Thu Oct 7 12:40:42 2004

Hi All
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> The discussion below regarding “THE ULTIMATE BATTING TEE” has run off the page. I am starting the discussion as a new thread because the controversy centers around defining the most productive swing plane. Understanding the true nature of the swing plane is crucial in understanding productive swing mechanics. In fact, I have found that a flaw in the swing plane is normally evident in frame-by-frame analysis when good hitters develop a flaw in their mechanics. --- Many of you may remember the flaw in A-Rod’s swing plane we pointed out occurring during his early season batting slump.
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> I have not had a chance to review the improvements to the batting tee Erik described during our phone discussion and therefore will reserve judgment. However, data from our study with the Motion Study Computer as well as from frame-by-frame chartings of thousands of Major League swings supports Scott’s findings (below) that the vast majority of swing planes bottom-out about 18 to 24 inches before contact and is on an up-slope through the contact zone. Our data show the up-slope angle to be 8 to 12 degrees on average.
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> Below is a reprint of posts from that discussion.
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> Jack Mankin
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> (Scott posted)
> >>> I really have no ox to gore here.
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> But I look at a LOT of video of MLB hitters. Real swings, not drill swings. I generally use 60fps video, which gives a lot of detail compared to the usual 27-30fps.
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> On every swing I study, I use drawing tools (frame-by-frame) to draw the swing plane and then compare it to pitch plane (I draw other things as well, depending on what I am studying, but I always drawn swing plane). The product I use for this (RightView Pro) also has math tools to measure degrees of angle. The MLB pitch trajectory appears to me to be approximately 2-3 degrees downward at the top of the zone, about 5-9 at the waist, more at the knees. The swing plane is ALWAYS up w/ MLB hitters (maybe not Ichiro). It is clear that they are trying to match (in reverse) the pitch plane with their swing plane, for obvious reasons. The swing plane begins moving up from about the time the bat clears the back leg (or sooner). I can not imagine how the machine in question can be used to simulate an upward swing plane beginning approximately 2 - 3 feet before contact.
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> I do know that my 13 YO daughter, who is a pretty fair hitter in FP TB in California, was asked to hit in the device at a clinic. She laughed, and referred to it as a torture device. She wanted to know if it could be turned over and the ball hung from a string.
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> From the mouth of babes. . .
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> I also know for a certainty that many MLB players - including some names that would surprise us - BELIEVE that they swing downward to the ball. After all, the bat goes down before it goes up, and it may well feel like a downward stroke all the way to contact. But reality (as captured on video) transcends feeling.
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> This is why it is so vitally important not to listen to what anyone SAYS about hitting, even MLBers. Also including me. The only thing that really matters is how the best hitters in the world ACTUALLY hit, not how they say they hit. I think Jack can tell some stories in this regard himself, if he choses to. But few MLB players can describe their swing, and remarkably few study video of their own swings. This extends to many top hitting coaches as well. And college is worse.
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> It is my opinion that virtually none of the best hitters in the world swing down, or swing on a plane that can be accomodated with the Griffey machine. If I am wrong, I apologize in advance for demeaning a legitimate product. But before I conceed that I'm wrong, someone is going to have to explain the dozens (maybe hundreds) of marked up video clips I own illustrating MLB swing planes - all up. <<<
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> (ERIK LASEKE reply)
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> >>> HI scott,
> The swing does start down, that bat levels off, and the body tilt has to do in what reaction occurs. I would like to know what type of hitters you are defining? Where the pitch is ?I would also like you to talk about the swing on the pitch that is up in the strike zone. How do you approach this pitch, start your swing up or down? Have you ever seen a hitter chop down on a pitch that is up and the result is a hard line drive? If so, explain why this occurs. Does it matter where the postion of the hands are held in relation to the approach of the swing? In my opinion this matters .Hands that start low have a tendency to approach the ball uppwards in certain pitch locations, hitters that start their hand high must get the barrell down to the ball. Would you agree with this ?I played against Sammy sosa in A-ball, Sammy held his hands very much like julio franco. I noticed that Sammy had trouble with the low fast ball, since then he has made the change in where he starts his hands. I see how he gets to the low pitch now do you? I'm not disagreeing in how the swing sould be. I'm disagreeing in the comments that suggest this isn't possible to achieve the swing that produces getting the ball in the air by training with THE ULTIMATE BATTING TEE. Please define where the majority of hitters hands are postioned at start, and share with me what you find to be. I would love to have a copy of this so I to can evaluate the same data that you are presenting, and representing your self with. ERIK LASEKE <<<
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Na N Na N Na Na...........Precisely the problem with that contraption.