Posted by: Jim E. () on Mon Aug 9 14:08:55 2004

Jack,
> > > > >
> > > > > Great site you have here.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have read numerous post on the THT topic here at your site but am most confused when you or other posters say how clearly you can "see" THT in player X's swing etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > For example,I can see the bathead being taken back toward the catcher but how can I know this action is being caused by THT and not just a less
> > > > > active result other than a "bow string pull" type of action? I mean, I can bring back my hands the same way without necessarily using such force to do so just by shrugging my back shoulder. So how do you determine/identify the movements as THT?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > That's a great question.
> > >
> > > Hey Teacherman,
> > >
> > > Here's how i see it... one get's on plane in the launch position and initiates the swing with hips and shoulder rotation. no argument there.
> > > Now as the bathead sweeps around into contact you have a choice. 1) allow the bathead to sweep around while lowering the hands perpendicular to contact. or 2) do exactly the same thing as in choice #1 but use the muscles of the forearm of the top hand to FORCE the rotation of the top hand into the palm up position. this force(torque) will SPEED UP the displacement of the bathead. this FORCE is being applied in the EXACT direction of the PLANE of the bat. what might be confusing is the term "pulling like a bow string". that i think would pull the bat out of PLANE. it's a FORCE(torque)of rotation.
> > >
> > > Here's an analogy... in weight lifting a person can be squatting down with a bar under their chin(light bar). if they explode up from the squatting position the bar will travel up over their head with no FORCE from the shoulder muscles. same as the choice #1 above.
> > >
> > > Now the weight lifter squats down with the bar and explodes upward and at the same time applies FORCE to the bar with his hands, choice #2 above. the speed at which the bar travels over his head is much faster in choice #2 because of the added force applied by the hands... can the eye detect that force? NO but it is unquestionably THERE.
> > >
> > > You can apply THT and gain batspeed or you can think there is no such thing and wonder why your fly balls aren't clearing the fence. my 15 year old daughter learned about that force and now her fly balls clear the fence once in awhile. the key is applying the force in the exact plane of the bat. end of story. regards
> >
> > Hey Rich,
> >
> > Don't know why you directed your response to Teacherman when I asked the question? But, you kind of answered my question. It is not a matter of whether I agree with what you say takes place is THT or not. You basically stated what we do agree on, you CAN'T really SEE IT? You have to believe the action you are "SEEING" is THT and not some other action. That is why I asked the question as to why so many posters and yes even Jack on this site keep stating they "SEE" THT in so and so's swing. When in reality and based on your answer there really is nothing to pinpoint in what they "see" that can confirm it is THT.
> >
> > If there is "something" absolute that Jack, you or any poster can relate to me that says "there it is THT" that is what I want to know so that I can look for it and see it as well.
> >
> > I am not anti-THT and I understand the concept fairly well. Just wondering how, (what) so many posters see that allows them to say they SEE THT? So I can better identify myself.
> >
> > Still wondering, is THT that obvious to the eye? If so, what am I missing?
>
> >
> > Hey Jim,
>
> I think to "see" tht we need a frame by frame ability... i think as we stride and go into the coil and get our hip and shoulder separation the pull back occurs a millisecond before the shoulders are launched by the hip rotation. so we don't "see" it with the naked eye. but it can probably be seen in frame by frame.
>
> I know it's there because i practice swing in order to teach it to my daughter. and i can FEEL the difference. the swing is all about FEEL.
> all the good internet teachers are trying to help us get the feel...
> some explanations strike a cord in some and help them get the feel. others it doesn't make any sense.
>
> THT might help you understand or not... personally i think BHT is the bad ass part of the swing(other than the perfected core rotation of course)
> Regards, Rich

Rich,

You clarify my point again on THT. If we really can't see it but can feel it then posters to this site should be leary about stating they "see" so and so using THT. I agree it is NOT something easily seen and I don't even know how it can be seen in frame by frame either?
Rich, unless there is a specific focus of the camera on the forearms and or metacarpals flexing for example where we can detect "the bowstring pull" then IMO, it is impossible to state that THT is in action when in fact, some other action could be producing the same "bat barrel to the catcher" result we see. That other action could be a simple rear shoulder shrug and not necessarily THT. This is the very reason I keep posing the still unanswered question as to what "specifics" Jack or any THT advocate "sees" that absolutely tells them and proves THT is the action utilized.

It is not a matter of whether I believe THT causes that action? I can even say it does! But, I can't determine that by simply looking at any other hitter and identifying it with a specific movement. This is why IMO, there as so many arguments about THT/BHT. It is not definitive within the mechanics we can see. Not unless or until someone at this site can explain how to "identify" the action instead of just "describing" it as the bat barrel pulling back toward the catcher.