Posted by: grc () on Fri Jul 23 15:46:09 2004

>>> jack...in section truism or fallacy, “keep your shoulder in there”you say “”the rule certainly has merit during the stride and pre-launch positioning, but far too many coaches think it also applies during the swing....
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> i have noticed that about 90 percent of the mlb hitters have their shoulder tucked in about 15-20 degrees at frame -5 (one frame before swing starts)...this is epstein’s “torque position”....we can call it what we want, but i would not consider the frame immediately preceding the start of the swing “pre-launch positioning” (some might even call it “launch positioning)....
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> what i would like to hear from you is the exact point in the swing or “pre-swing” that you feel the shoulder is no longer “in”....it is an important concept because even with so many different styles of pre-launch/strides out there, it does seem that in the end all these styles are are techniques to end up at frame -5 with the shoulder in....
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> and you don’t need to discuss the cons of trying to SWING with the shoulder in....i don’t think any of us think we should...the issue is where the shoulder is one frame prior to starting the swing, 5 frames prior to contact...
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> respectfully, grc.... <<<
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> Hi grc
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> I cannot see the conflict you seem to have. -- In preparing the launch position, the lead-shoulder is shrugged inward (“inward turn”, “adducted”, “torque angle” or etc ). At initiation, it is the rotation of the shoulders that accelerates the hands into the swing plane.
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> Therefore, in the Truism or Fallacy section, I stated the, "Keep your shoulder in there," has been a major deterrent to the development of good hitters. It leads to a slower development of bat speed and, along with creating other biomechanical problems, it can cause the wrists to roll prematurely. The rule certainly has merit during the stride and pre-launch positioning, but far too many coaches think it also applies during the swing. -- & -- The "keep your shoulder in there" rule does have merit during the stride and balance procedure a batter takes in preparation for the swing. However, any premature opening of the shoulders before the initiation of the swing will result in a loss of power.”
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> What am I missing?
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> Jack Mankin
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> maybe you are getting closer when you add "and balance procedure" to "during the stride"...let me ask the question another way (and all i am doing is seeking clarification).....we both agree the swing takes about 4 frames.....therefore i think we can stipulate that the swing starts in frame # -4.....i have observed that the shoulder is still in with most mlb hitters at frame # -5 (one frame before the swing starts, 5 frames before contact)....my question to you is do you agree that at frame # -5 the shoulder can/is still in , or do you think by frame # -5 the shoulder is NOT still in?