Posted by: tom.guerry (tom.guerry@kp.org) on Wed Jun 2 11:35:15 2004

Hi All
> >
> > There is a continuing discussion (May into June) of Bonds statements regarding his swing. I will bring the discussion into June as a new thread.
> >
> > Jack Mankin
> > ##
> > (Carlos M)
> > I just watched it myself and was gonna make a post here about it. He was "teaching" Jenny Finch how to hit a baseball pretty much. He talked about keeping your front shoulder lined up with the ball as it is approaching and using the top hand to throw the barrel at the ball. He also said the bat drags through the zone when most people focus on the bottom hand. That's pretty much what it was about, or atleast the focus<
> >
> > (Teacherman)
> > That doesn't sound like THT to me?
> >
> > (Brian)
> > It is unclear what Bonds means by throwing the top hand and keeping the lead shoulder lined up with the ball. It certainly doesn't sound like scap load, bow arch or hook in the hand path either. I did not watch the program, but Bonds apparently did not mention the lower body, so it is also unclear if he believes that the lower body plays an important role. I wish he would have explained his approach further because there are many different interpretations that we could make about what he said. In any event, whatever cues Bonds focuses on certainly works for him.
> >
> > Frame-by-frame video shows that Bonds has great top hand action at the beginning of the swing. He then puts his bat into a very good circular hand path, his bat is in line with his lead shoulder, and he has excellent lead shoulder pull throughout the swing.
> >
> > Brian
> > BatSpeed.com
> >
> > (mb)
> > What Bond's describes is exactly what Homer Kelley's "The Golfing Machine" teaches. Bonds creates tremendous lag and thrusts or swings (2 different actions) the number #3 accumulator into the inside back of the ball with left arm extensor action. The science of hitting a golf ball and baseball are similar although on different planes. Forget about scapula loading, THT, etc. they all have little to do with actually contacting the ball correctly. Mr. Kelley deciphered the science to hitting a ball.
> >
> > (Brian)
> > Since you are familiar with Kelley's study of the golf swing, perhaps you can explain what you/he means in more detail, and how his studies apply to the baseball swing. How does Bonds create tremendous lag? Why is bat lag beneficial (as compared to club lag. The bat is not flexible like a golf club and cannot whip at contact like a club).
> >
> > Since I don't have the book, please further explain what you mean by Bonds' purported action: "thrusts or swings (2 different actions) the number #3 accumulator into the inside back of the ball with left arm extensor action." It sounds like you are merely describing a push of the back (left) arm to the ball or a linear movement. Is that what you mean or not? If that is the case, then Kelly's golf analysis would not apply to Bonds' swing.
> >
> > Are you suggesting that Bonds' initiation of the bat is not a critical part of his swing? If you believe that his initiation of the swing is important, then describe the forces acting on the bat as he initiates the swing. If it is not torque caused by the top hand, forearm, elbow and shoulder pulling back (THT) on the handle, then state what forces are causing Bonds' bat to initiate the swing.
> >
> > Are you suggesting that Bonds has a straight or circular hand path with the left arm by your reference to "left arm extensor action"? Explain the significance of left arm extensor action, and how it is applied.
> >
> > Are you suggesting that lead shoulder movement is not critical? Bonds lead shoulder rotates to the 105 position at contact, meaning that his lead shoulder is a very active part of the swing. The lead shoulder pull causes the bottom arm/hand to place tremendous force on the handle (BHT or hook in the hand-path). Please explain Kelley/your position on the lead shoulder as well.
> >
> > Hopefully, your understanding of Kelley's golf study and ability to relay that information will be beneficial before we "forget" about the actual forces acting on the baseball bat.
> >
> > Brian
> > BatSpeed.com
>
> ******************************************************************
> Brian,
> I am not suggesting there is not lead shoulder pull or that hand movement is not crucial. These are excellent questions and all covered in Kelley's book!! Bond's is simply saying what Kelley wrote 40 years ago.
> Kelley's book is a Textbook format blueprint for all the possible ways (roughly 24 million) to swing a golf club. He does not expouse any particular method. Bond's and ARod both swing/thrust the bat differently each highly succesful. There is no one correct swing!!! Kelley's book took some 30 years and 6 editions to describe the actions and physics involved. He states that the same science can be carried over to other sports. Baseball, hockey come to my mind.
>
> My comments suggest that we are looking at the baseball swing all wrong. We should be looking at contact and how do we achieve maximum compression on the ball. That's all that counts maximum compression on the ball!!!!! Think about it. What does it take to achieve maximum compression on the ball??
>
> More to follow:
>

I think the premise that you should optimize the swing for max compression is faulty.

I would suggest that hitting is timing and the swing should be optimized to minimize timing error.This means that the best swing will be a "quick swing".Shorten the path of the bathead from beginning of rapid acceleration (when "well connected" center of mass of bat swings out of arc of handpath) to contact and traverse this path as quickly as possible.

As Jack has pointed out,"Transfer Mechanics" for hitting are different from golf.The golf swing accelerates much more quickly than usual if you use Jack's "THT" as demonstrated by Jack in his golf club drill.In this case,torque is applied at the top of the swing to resist the reactive forces that would narrow the hinge angle as the club direction reverses.In this case,the golf club reaches max clubspeed about halfway into the down swing well before there is any tendency for the wrists to roll.This does not produce an effective golf swing,but shows much about how the hitting swing is different.

In golf,it appears it might be best (to maximize distance/compression/clubspeed as opposed to club control)if you apply torque to resist the reactive forces that narrow the hinge angle NOT at the top of the swing,BUT later near the time of maximum separation/xfactor stretch (about when hands are back down at 10 or 11 o'clock,then keep applying torque until near contact.See "SIM-2" in this link from Ray Porco:

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1046/j.1460-2687.2002.00094.x/abs/