Posted by: Doug () on Sat Apr 17 19:00:10 2004

Jack,
>
> on Fri Apr 9 03:41:34 2004 in the “top hand wrist” thread, you said:
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> “P.S. I would like to focus this thread for Ray’s replies only. If someone wishes to comment on this subject, please do so with another thread.’
>
> I have replied. You have now responded to two threads with posting times after mine.
>
> I believe I answered your questions, I believe I explained what happens to batspeed when you extend to reach a pitch outside , and I believe I gave as much detail as possible.
>
> You said/promised, “…and give as much detail as possible. I will do the same.”
>
> When?
>
> And since I answered your questions, please answer mine:
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> One way or another a rotational or a linear hitter taking a stance so as to contact the sweet spot of the bat with a pitch over the center of the plate, must get the sweet spot of the bat out 8 ½ inches to properly contact an outside pitch in the black. You said, “With rotational transfer mechanics, generating a wider hand-path for outside pitches is NOT governed by using the arms to extend the hands.” I am at a loss. How can you extend the hands without extending the arms? The logical question is then, “are they not attached to each other?” AND “if you do NOT extend the arms then how do you get the bat out 8 ½ inches more???
>
> Whether your hands are linearly thrust to a spot 8 ½ inches further, or follow a wider arc 8 ½ inches further, they are still 8 ½ inches further away from your body unless you tilt (which a linear or rotational hitter would do). And while you may say that increased THT will blow away a linear hitter, let us only consider a rotational hitter:
>
> In a rotational hitter is the potential for rolling the wrists increased the further the hands are from the body?
>
> In a rotational hitter at what contact point (with an outside pitch in the black) is the top hand wrist at it’s weakest position to prevent wrist roll, - late (opposite field), even (center field), early (pull)?
>
> In a rotational hitter at what contact point (with an outside pitch in the black) is the top hand wrist at it’s strongest position to prevent wrist roll, - late (opposite field), even (center field), early (pull)? <<<
>
> Hi Ray
>
> There are a number of rotational hitters in the Major Leagues that carry a high batting average that can also pull outside pitches for great distances. This would not be possible if their wrists prematurely rolled while pulling those outside balls. The problems you associate with pulling outside pitches are just not present in their swings.
>
> However, I agree that the problems you describe can occur with the vast majority of hitters who try to pull outside pitches. This is because, the farther out the pitch, the more most hitters use the extension of the arms to extend the hands. This develops a straighter hand-path that generates little bat speed (bat sliding linearly knob first at the ball). With little angular bat displacement coming from the hand-path, these hitters must now rely more on torque to bring the bat-head to contact. And as you stated, “Torqueing the wrists severely (coupled with the arms stretched and restricted hip rotation) will cause wrist roll.”
>
> The great hitters can successfully pull outside pitches because they do not extend the hands as they initiate the swing. They first accelerate the bat-head back toward the catcher (THT) before rotating and directing their energy (continued Torque + CHP) at the ball. This allows them to bring the bat to contact with great bat speed on outside pitches well before the back-arm fully extends to where the wrists begin to roll.
>
> Ray, you stated, -- “One way or another a rotational or a linear hitter taking a stance so as to contact the sweet spot of the bat with a pitch over the center of the plate, must get the sweet spot of the bat out 8 ½ inches to properly contact an outside pitch in the black. You said, “With rotational transfer mechanics, generating a wider hand-path for outside pitches is NOT governed by using the arms to extend the hands.” I am at a loss. How can you extend the hands without extending the arms? The logical question is then, “are they not attached to each other?” AND “if you do NOT extend the arms then how do you get the bat out 8 ½ inches more??? --
>
> Ray, keep in mind that with rotational mechanics there is no extension of the lead-arm. It is already fairly straight at initiation and remains fairly straight during the swing. --- Try taking a bat and assuming a contact position with the lead-shoulder pulled back to the 105-degree position and the lead-arm across your chest. The back-arm is in the “L” position at your side. Note that the knob is barely out past your side. Now, rotate your shoulders back to about the 65-degree position. Note that this allows the knob to be about 10+ inches farther out. This plate coverage was due to the amount of shoulder rotation – not the extension of the lead-arm (it remained straight). Also note that the back-arm is not extended to where the wrist would be rolling – even with 65-degree shoulders. These are the contact positions for rotational mechanics.
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> Jack Mankin
>

Jack, I have to disagree with some of what you have said. First, all hitters in the big leagues rotate to hit unless they are fooled. Second, you are incorrect when you say a number of big league hitters with high averages that can pull outside pitches a great distance. Only if they stand right on the plate making an outside corner fastball a pitch in their happy zone. Bonds used to stand with his front foot almost touching home plate, but changed about 6-7 years ago and moved off about 4-5 inches. The reason he did that is that when he was on the plate, he could not handle or keep fair the pitch on the inside corner. At that time in his career, he tried to pull everything and then moved off the plate a little and became a much better hitter for average and power. He started banging pitches away to left and center and pulled all the stuff middle in.

Other than Bonds when he stood on the plate, who else pulls balls a long way that are outside corner pitches? Rob Deer tried, but it is the main reason he hit about .225 every year. The guys today don't stand on the plate, because they are taught to go the other way with the tin bats in amatuer ball and are chastised when they try to pull anything. If you can stand about 12-15 off the plate and can pull balls with authority in the air that are on the outside corner, I will buy you a steak dinner wherever you want.

Rotational mechanics are excellent, but they don't allow you to do everything you want. If a good hitter could pull every pitch and hit it hard in the air, he would hit 150 HR's. The truth is, they can't do it.

Doug