Posted by: grc (grcrackel@yahoo.com) on Thu Sep 14 08:50:50 2000

I'm a little confused about the stride.
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> > > > > > > > > > Does the knee and shoulders rotate inward first and THEN stride and bring the hands back, or is it all in one movement?
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> > > > > > > > > To who ever you are,
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> > > > > > > > > I will assume you are talking about some fast pitch game, baseball or fastpitch softball.
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> > > > > > > > > You will find different theorys about the stride. Some want it to be separate from the swing. They recomend you do it just before or as the pitcher releases the ball. After the stride there is a short pause and the batter starts what ever cocking motion he uses. Pushing the bat back, a small turn away from the pitcher, then the hips start the move toward the ball. It varies.
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> > > > > > > > > Others teach that the stride is the first part of the swing. The stride happens first followed immedately by the cocking motion. Its part of the swing. They teach this because they see many pros do it.
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> > > > > > > > > If you are teaching younger kids, under 18, don't teach it this way.
> > > > > > > > > The pros do it because they are stong and quick enough to do it. Most kids are not. So, teach the stride with a pause before the cocking motion.
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> > > > > > > > > Make the stride short. Its only a timing mechinisim for those us use it. Actually it can do more harm then good. It adds nothing to the swing but it can cause a movement that is harmfull to good hitting. But, some kids get in the habit of doing it and its hard to break. So, if you can't keep them from doing it, limit it a minimum. Try having them pick it up and putting it back in the same place.
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> > > > > > > > > Joe A.
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> > > > > > > > Joe,
> > > > > > > > i agree that the stride is a timing mechanism. however, it is also used to develop rhythm and tempo in the swing. Yes, there is a SLIGHT pause before rotation after the lead foot makes contact with the ground - achieving a sense of "land and go." But, i think the stride, or move to the ball, is a critical element of the swing. as i mentioned, the stride develops timing and rhythm. in addition, it allows the hitter to provide more of a collision at contact as long as the foot lands squarely with the plate and the hitter's chin stays behind the lead heel.
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> > > > > > > > some coaches eliminate the stride because hitters tend to either land open, drift over the front foot, etc. Instead of eliminating the stride, one may want to examine the timing of the trigger, or initiation of the weight transfer back before striding. If the hitter has a late trigger, as what we see when the hitter waits till release point, the feet speed up, tempo and rhythm are lost, and the hitter has the tendency to open up.
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> > > > > > > > in my honest opinion, the lead foot may be the second most important aspect of the swing - behind the importance of the hands. spend more time with hitters on staying inside the feet, landing square with the plate, and developing slow, smooth feet in the stride. chances are, they will see results.
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> > > > > > > > as for your opinion on what big leaguers do as opposed to amateurs, where do you draw the line on what is reserved for those in mlb. obviously they are doing something right that enables them to succeed at the highest level. wouldn't one want to emulate some of the common characteristics of the traditional big league swing? go watch a good college baseball game, or the college world series. go see a high school game where some pro and college prospects play. i guarantee the vast majority incorporate a stride.
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> > > > > > > > respectfully,
> > > > > > > > tjs
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> > > > > > > TJS,
> > > > > > > You are correct, but at the big leg leavel, the stride is used for timing, and to get into a balanced position to hit, but is no way associated with power. Just a thought.
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> > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > BHL
> > > > > > > Knight1285@aol.com
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> > > > > > BHL,
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> > > > > > thanks for the thought. i have always enjoyed them. but, i did not intend for anyone to believe that i consider the stride to be associated with "power." i do however think that it allows/helps the hitter to create a "collision" at contact. as the hitter makes a move to the ball, or stride, the lead foot stabilizes the front side and acts as resistance for the backside to work into the front. this simple explanation may be vague but i think you know what i mean. i look forward to reading your future posts.
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> > > > > > respectfully,
> > > > > > tjs
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> > > > > tjs,
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> > > > > I am going to tell you something that I wouldn't normally let out on this site. You did not give an email address. Usually I send my best advice to somone who needs in via email.
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> > > > > You are correct that the pros move their front foot. But, they do not "stride" in the sense that they move the foot. Some dont stride, Some pick the foot up and place it back in the same place. others move the foot only an inch or two. Some keep their front foot out side and bring it back to start their swing but they do not move it foward There are exceptions, but very few. When you see somone make a big stride (six inches or more) its usually when they are badly fooled.
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> > > > > I draw the line between the pros/college and lower level players at the movements that requrie speed and strength. I will tell you that most pros would not teach any one what they do other then the basics for example the stride. The stride is not a strenght or speed its fundemental to a good swing. A large stride causes a an fundemental error that you will see no good hitters do at any level. What the baseball highlights and watch the batters front foot, they dont move it toward the pitcher at all
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> > > > > Joe A.
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> > > > joe,
> > > > i apologize, but i believe that my e-mail is attached to all my posts. if not, it was clearly an oversight. i'd love to read some of your "advise."
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> > > > i do not know if you have seen much tape of some of the premier hitters throughout the baseball. if you have, you must go back and review it again. there is definitely a "move to the ball" or stride at the conclusion of the trigger. in all honesty, i think those hitters who do not make a linear move to the ball prior to rotation are in the vast minority.
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> > > > a move to the ball is a move to the ball (not in the direction of the pitch location, but a linear move towards the mound). i'm sure you have nomar in mind when you think of a non-stride hitter. however, he does have a move back against the backside then makes a move forward (simply done by shifting the weight.) it is still a move to the ball. the majority of hitters use a more traditional "stride" towards the mound. just off the top of my head i see ruth, mantle, dimaggio, musial, williams, clemente, aaron, yaz, brett, griffey, sosa, a-rod, just to name a dozen or so of the best hitters of our time and the past use the stride. now, the distance of the stride is personal - dependent on the body type, limitations, style, etc. sure, a stride more than conventional length will spread the hitter out and cause him to collapse or spin on the backside. i'm not debating length of the stride. all i'm offering is that the majority of hitters make a move to the ball - most accomplish it by striding.
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> > > > in addition, i do watch highlights. along with hundreds of clips of hitters who do not make the highlight reel. i see a stride (or a linear move towards the mound) in the form of the lead foot being raised and placed back down at a distance further than its original location in the stance. please go back and review your tapes frame by frame.
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> > > > respectfully,
> > > > tjs
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> > > tjs,
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> > > I wasn't going to answer your latest post becuse I don't think you are at a level to graps what I am saying. But, for others who made read this stuff I hope to offer clarification. And is even possible you will lean something. Who knows.
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> > > Firt of all, if you do observe good hitters at any level you will note that they do not move their head. It remains in a fixted postion in space as if in a box. I know you will say that their head truns a little to follow the ball. This is a common misconception of the uneducated who dont know how to "see." It is possible to turn the head and have it remain in a fixed position as if in a box.
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> > > So, in the future when you are watching what ever it is you watch when your watching, notice that good hitters keep their head in a fixed position. Most importantly notice that their head does not DROP. It reamins at the same height through out the swing.
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> > > Why is this important, you should ask, but I know you can't? Because if a hitter strides more than one or two inches he must lower his body and since his head is attached to his body his head lowers also.
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> > > So, heres what you should do now that you know what to look for, whatch those highlight films again. This view is usually from behind the pitcher. Notice the level of the head. Dont look at the foot. Because the tv camera is a one eyed view there is not depth perception and you cant tell if the hitter moves his foot forard or not. But if he moves his foot forward more then one or two inches the his head must, MUST move downward.
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> > > You may not want to beleive it but sad to say, its true. Its a physiacl fact that no amoutn if ignorance can refute.
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> > > I hope this will help you in your attempts to lean something about what you talk so much about. No thanks are necessary.
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> > > Joe A.
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> > joe,
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> > i've just read your latest post defending your stance on the stride. i wish i had read it sooner but did not have the opportunity to log on earlier. in all honesty i'm not going to get in a shouting match or trade insults with someone who tends to disagree with me - it is not only embarassing for the both of us but also devalues the purpose of this site. the creators of this board have done a tremendous job in providing a forum where coaches of all levels can read, add suggestions, or become active participants in the sharing of baseball knowledge.
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> > and to be even more frank, i'm embarassed for you. i could never imagine writing to someone on a site like this "I wasn't going to answer your latest post becuse I don't think you are at a level to graps what I'm saying..." (that's a direct quote, letter for letter - maybe the spelling is indicative of the point i'm trying to make). and by the way, do you even know what level i'm involved with? you would be very suprised what coaches read this site. by no means do i equate my level of knowledge with the program i'm working for. i wish it did work that way because i would probably know much more than i do.
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> > i was once told a valuable piece of information from a abca hall of fame coach...the day you think you know everything about hitting is the day you should get out of baseball. i believe most here would agree with me. men like yourself are dangerous. you seem to have a truly myopic opinion on hitting and must defend it with insults, rather than intelligently discussing it with some class.
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> > who knows, you may be correct in your assertion. i don't believe so. but, i'm telling you what i see and what we teach - and believe me, we see results.
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> > now, to clear up some details on what i do "see." i tend to avoid the camera angle from centerfield for a few reasons. first of all, it blocks the view of the backside. secondly, you really don't get an idea of the stride and how the feet land. however, i do like the frontal camera angles when watching the timing of the trigger. what i like to "see" are open-side shots, ones that show the hitter facing the camera. here i can see the feet, rotation of the body, the hand path, etc.
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> > finally, i agree with you on one point...the head does have a slight downward movement when striding - and obviously the farther the stride the farther the head will lower. i never said the hitter does the splits in the box. however, i think the minimal amount it does move when taking a stride does not become a variable.
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> > like yourself, i am very difficult to change my opinions. if you do not mind i would like to send you a tape of hitters from the open side that may change your mind.
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> > always respectfully,
> > tjs
> tjs,
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> For years I have filmed, taped and made a personal study of good hitters in little league, high school, softball, Am Legion, some colleg and a local AAA minor league team. What I see on TV is the smallest part of what I observe. My ability to learn was imporved when they came out with cameras that allow instant slow motion playback on the camera.
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> I don't change my opinions easiely because tehy come from years of hard work and study- learning to "see." Most "coaches" beleive and teach stuff that is documentably untrue. Swing level,the up swing, the rise ball, crush the bug are just a few of what "coaches" beleive and try to teach kids.
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> If something is not true there is no evidence that it is. So, tell me, how does someone come to beleive and teach that something that is not true???
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> They do it because they dont know but their ego demands that they know. Hell, they are only dealing with young people who are not allowed to question them. The more complicated they make it the bigger the "expert" they are.
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> I really dont have much tolarance for people who's ego is the primary concern rather then the kids who rely on them.
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> My name is on all my posts. If your delecate sensibilities can't handle what I write, dont read it.
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> Joe A.
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> i agree with tjs.....joe a...you do have a problem with civility....at this site , hitting.com & setpro.com there is generally not a single contributor who knows more tham another.....we are all here to learn for none of us knows everything.....why do you express your opinion unless it's because you want someone to listen to you?....nothing wrong with that except that who will listen if you continually undermine your credibility with the personal insults?.....no one will challenge one's credibility if they speak in a CIVIL TONE....try to understand, joe: just behave in a civil mannner!!!...that's all, simple as that!!!!....just use good old-fasioned MANNERS!!!...THAT'S ALL COACH TOM, TJS, JACK and others are asking........having said that, i agree with the value and power of film as you say you have used at various levels of play.....charley lau was a back up catcher in the bigs....but he got his fame from studying and observing what IS as seen on film.....i too have filmed many players at various levels.....and many of my conclusions about a major league swing are based on what i have observed on film.....examples....circular hand path, squashing the bug...if i couldn't observe most major leaguers having a circular hand path, then i would challenge jack's theories.....but it is easily observed on film......or if someone were to try to tell me that squashing the bug is not a valid concept i would challenge them, for this too is an easily observable fact, as seen on film.....SUMMARY.....(1) for awhile your behavior had improved & then it started regressing.....please....there are times that you make some interesting comments and people will pay atention if you simply ACT CIVIL, behave with MANNERS (2) as you so well have pointed out, a lot can be learned by simple filming the pros.......ever so respectfully & hoping that things will turn around for you, grc....