Posted by: tom.guerry (tom.guerry@kp.org) on Tue Dec 2 08:29:58 2003

Sandman-

Thanks for the many excellent clips in the Rose and Andy's swing threads.

I particularly like the frame by frame of Soriano to look at in conjunction with the actual back and forth frames.

You can begin to make the attempt at analyzing cause and effect from this evidence,although,this remains complex/full of pitfalls.

What interests me most at this time in the andy/soriano comparison is the "over rotated hips" or whatever you want to call the difference in the timing of the hips opening and their relationship to the "hands staying back"/the "upper body load.

here are some recent posts of Jack about how separation is created

http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/output/13743.html

http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/output/13734.html

"You will note as rql pointed out in his Post , it is the rotation of the shoulders (and the timely un-shrugging of the lead-shoulder – pulling back of the lead-arm) that powers the hand-path, creates the “hook” in the hand-path and generates Bottom-Hand-Torque. However, as I pointed out above, this can only take place if the hands remain back and allow shoulder rotation to accelerate the hands at initiation"

?How do the hands stay back ?

This gets back to THT as the "missing link" (key to upper body loading/cocking/uncocking bat) from the "Epstein perspective".

Epstein illustrates torque at a high level with his arrow diagrams and the description of the hips leading the hands,then yanking the torso around.

Jacks mechanical model is a "3 arc" model,not 2.

Add a higher circle to Epstein's logo with the top and bottom circles going one way at about the same time and this allows/helps the middle circle (upper torso) to turn back and "stay back" until the right amount of stretch and reversal (vertical torsion bar as described by greg Johnston)takes place.

The difference this makes can be seen between andy and soriano.Soriano loads the upper body/centers and uncocks the bat and keeps the hands back better with acceleration of the bat back toward the catcher.This loads the torso better and transfers energy to the bat better as the swing proceeds so the arms don't have to take over and get the hands off the merrygoround too soon.