Posted by: Rich () on Mon Nov 3 21:20:25 2003

> Hi All
> > > >
> > > > This thread is continued from a Oct 31 post
> > > >
> > > > >>> For a good explanation on the difference between
> scapula loading and counter rotation see the following
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.setpro.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=
> get_topic;f=34;t=000046
> > > >
> > > > As seen in this thread I have a slightly different take from
> Paul Nyman on this overall issue.Unfortunately this gets into the
> guru wars so be careful (I am by no means a guru,but I
> aggravate them quite well on occasion.I may be dangerous,but I
> don't claim to be an expert.Reader beware.Insert your desired
> disclaimer here).
> > > >
> > > > I believe more than scap loading is necessary to connect
> well and prevent dragging.I also believe some degree of
> "counter rotation" of the TORSO is necessary,because without
> SOME (not a lot) you can not rotate around around a stable axis
> effectively.I do NOT,however think you define "counter rotation"
> as turning the SHOULDERS back via twisting the top of the
> spine significantly back.You do have to turn/coil the lower/mid
> TORSO some.After an overall SLIGHT inward turn,the torso has
> to turn/continue back a little as the stride leg goes out and the
> hips stretch open.This can/should be done with a minimum of
> displacement,and certainly the head should not have to turn
> back.It(torso turns back as hips open-"counter-rotation") is
> observable in my experience of many hitters with high resolution
> video.It is easy to/should be "felt" as "winding the rubber
> band"(cue associated with Epstein which irritates some
> gurus)as the scap loads during the early forward portion of the
> stride.It is seen well on the guerrero clip.Hank Aaron said "you
> have to coil,but don't take a backswing"
> > > >
> > > > In addition to loading the back scap and keeping it loaded,
> as the back elbow drops primarily via external rotation
> (synchronized with external rotation of the stride leg for good
> coiling/loading)the back arm also needs to be stable in the
> shoulder socket.The arm(not scap) should not adduct or flex,or
> there will be disconnection and bat dragging as the back elbow
> slides out of the slot forward to the belly button.
> > > >
> > > > The sequence requires the synchronized back arm and
> lead leg external rotation immediately following scap load/
> TORSO counterrotation, and then well coordinated elevation of
> the lead elbow VIA internal rotation to create a stable shoulder/
> arm/hand ("box") configuration to prevent dragging with
> launch.This phase between torso counter-rotation/scap load on
> the one hand and "drop and tilt" on the other creates the first part
> of "prelaunch" tht which keeps the hands back,keeps the body
> loading,but without any further/excessive counter-rotation/
> backswing.
> > > >
> > > > This is the same sequence for the most part up to this
> point as in the overhand throw.Some scap load/counter-rotation
> is followed by "stepover" and uncocking of the hip/arching of the
> back before the torso turns or the head comes forward as it
> does in throwing(head forward is an additional phase in
> throwing,head stays back in hitting). <<<
> > > >
> > > > Hi Tom
> > > >
> > > > When I developed terms to describe mechanical principles
> of the swing, I was working with a physics lab. Therefore, those
> mechanical terms (THT, CHP, BTH) from my study were derived
> from the forces acting on the bat that caused the bat-head to
> accelerate. Although some coaches find it better to describe
> mechanical principles by the body and muscle groups that
> supply those forces, I must admit that I have little to no expertise
> in that field.
> > > >
> > > > From my perspective, the “loading” of a muscle group was
> to prepare the muscles to do work – as when a basketball player
> squats to load the muscles in preparation to jump. Along this
> same line, it seems that “scap loading” would PREPARE the
> body and limb muscles to whip the elbow (and arm) forward to
> throw a ball. But as I interpret references to scap loading in the
> baseball swing, the actual loading of the scab is used to do
> work, such as accelerating the bat-head back into the plane of
> the swing. It seems to me that the scap would not be loading to
> whip the elbow (and arm) forward as in the throwing action. In
> the baseball swing, once the elbow lowers to the batter’s side it
> remains there through contact.
> > > >
> > > > Therefore, the pinching back of the scap would appear to
> me as more of a “contraction” of the muscles to accelerate the
> bat-head, rather than “loading” in preparation to do work. --- The
> same would seem to hold true in the case of an archer pulling
> back on a bowstring. The muscles (scap) are contacting to do
> work, rather than loading in preparation to do work, as in
> throwing a ball.
> > > >
> > > > Group, your help in bringing me up to speed on this
> subject would be appreciated because I certainly do not claim to
> be a guru either in biomechanics and kinesiology. Mainly, it
> would be really helpful if someone could explain the difference
> between “top-hand-torque” (pulling back the top hand toward the
> catcher in order to create early bat speed) and, the subsequently
> termed, “scap loading.” Most importantly, does “scap loading”
> apply different forces to the bat than THT? Or does it merely
> describe THT with different terminology?
> > > >
> > > > Since it is the end of the month and this could lead to an
> informative discussion for all, I am starting the new month with
> this thread.
> > > > Jack my post on scap load did'nt come through to
> November it was right before your bottom post here and I would
> like to hear some of your thoughts on it ,I have been working
> lately on this part of the swing .
> > >>
> > >> I've slept on the scap load question and have more
> clearification in my own mind... Top Hand Torque is the pulling
> back of the hands towards the armpit and the pulling on the bat
> handle by the top hand much like an archer pulling on his bow.
> this technique starts the acceleration of the bathead and
> overcomes inertia before launch. the muscles involved in this
> action are the rear deltoid of the shoulder complex and the
> latissimus of the back. THT can be executed without involving
> the scap... however it is highly unlikely that it does. the key is
> understanding the scap and making sure that you get
> COMPLETE scap contraction before launch in order to maximize
> the angular bat path. the term LOAD is incorrect as Jack has
> pointed out. just as he used the example of the basketball player
> squatting to load to leap upward that is incorrect as the
> quadraceps are being stretched prior to contraction of the
> leaping action. the quads are NOT being loaded just as the scap
> is NOT being loaded. the term loaded i now take to mean being
> STRETCHED and being made ready for contraction... what is
> being stretched in the scap contraction? the pectoral of the
> chest... does knowing this help your swing? i believe yes... the
> more information your brain has it can use as you are in the
> "zone" during your swing. of course if you don't practice the feel
> of the scap contraction by isolating it during practice(while you're
> conscious of it vs being unconscious of it during a game
> swing)then you may not get the full benefit of that part of the
> swing... or not.
> > use the bag to put all the pieces together. use video. use
> radar. everbody should be able to master the perfect swing with
> the tools we have at our disposal... now transfering it to the
> game i need some insight on that please! thanks rich
>
> Danger,more speculative detail !
>
> I still think of the scap action in terms of loading.My interpretation
> is that Nyman's basic description of the throwing action should
> also apply to hitting.The muscles must apply force in a way that
> positions the body levers(bones/joint) well,permits sequential
> transfer of momentum(conservation of momentum from big
> slow parts to small fast moving parts) and adjusts the elastic
> properties of the soft tissues so the swing is optimized.He
> describes the necessity of "total body eccentris to concentric
> muscle action" to do this.This means the muscles are smoothly
> stretching and contracting without too much lengthening or
> interruption.Eccentric means the muscles are developing force
> that resists the ongoing stretching/lengthening before reversing
> and applying force while contracting.Theoretically,the muscle
> produces force best at the midpint of it's range between fully
> stretched and fully contracted.Reversal from stretch to contract
> also involves stretch reflexes in the muscle and tendon complex
> as well.Good tempo is important for avoiding interruption.You
> need to harness all these things just right to power the swing as
> much as posssible via elasticity and momentum transfer
> because force production alone is too time consuming to
> produce the necessary swing acceleration.Momentum transfer
> is near instantaneous,and elasticity is quick.
>
> I still think of the loading as a sequence of getting the muscles
> on stretch before interrupting this at the right time giving a last
> little bit of stretch,then sequential shortening.Hip cock loads the
> hip.Scap load loads the upper torso horizontally."rotating into toe
> touch" controlled by the synchronized external rotation of the
> back arm and stride leg loads the spine by coiling(x-factor) as
> the spine also starts to arch fromt he top down.As one part
> "loads" it needs to stay loaded while the next loads.So the hip
> stays loaded until it finally unloads/uncocks assisted by heel
> drop.The front scap also needs to be firmed up loaded at this
> time and the back scap remains loaded as the spine/coil maxes
> out,then reverses to create launch with good connection.

>> Tom,
Great posts... my understanding is always enhanced after reading what you have written. when i'm working on feel, which i use to analyze the swing, i sense that the front scap is abbducted by the pectoral. then latter just before contact it is adducted to help power the hook in the hand path. it seems that if it too were contracted like the back scap as it is in the throwing motion, it would be premature. i can't describe it now... i'll have to dwell on it for awhile and get back to you. all the best, rich