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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Torso and hips move together?


Posted by: () on Thu Oct 23 05:11:22 2003


>>> In Jack's video, he emphasizes that the hips and torso move together during rotation. He does mention that this is a point of some contention. As many are aware, one of Epstein's big teaching points is that the hips lead the torso, so that the upper body is acting somewhat crudely like a coiled spring to presumably increase bat speed.
> > > >
> > > > In the golf world, this a well known fact, the so-called "X-factor" of noted golf instructor Jim McLean. Analysis of power hitters like Daly and Woods show that the amount of differential angle between the hips and shoulders shows almost a one for one correspondence with driving distance.
> > > >
> > > > Surely, there is a differential at launch position of hips and torso (I think of Griffey who has huge shoulder rotation). If the hips and torso are to move together, when does that happen in the swing?
> > > >
> > > > I'd appreciate any comments that might clear up this point of confusion for me.
> > > >
> > > > Sincerely - JJA <<<
> > > >
> > > > Hi JJA
> > > >
> > > > Below is a post from the archives that should clarify my position on hip/shoulder rotation.
> > > >
> > > > ##
> > > > Re: kinetic chain
> > > > Posted by: Jack Mankin (MrBatspeed@aol.com on Mon Sep 24 16:36:01 2001
> > > >
> > > > >>> Hi all. I would like to learn about what is known as the kinetic chain. I heard this was the place to go to ask. I realize the subject may be a far-reaching one, but I'd just like to know the basics. Your help is greatly appreciated. Chris <<<
> > > >
> > > > Hi Chris
> > > >
> > > > Welcome to the site. I wrote a post below that pertains to the subject of your post. I am re-posting it so that you and others may respond to it. --- I refer to the kinetic chain as the mechanics of developing rotation around a stationary axis. Body rotation provides energy for the swing, but how much of that energy is converted into bat speed depends on the efficiency of the batter’s transfer mechanics. – Below is the post.
> > > >
> > > > ##
> > > >
> > > > It is quite obvious to anyone who has studied the baseball/softball swing that the hips are ahead of the shoulders or hands at the start of the swing. The hips start to lead the shoulders well before the swing is initiated. In the Frame-by-Frame section of the site (Swing Mechanics) I wrote, “The batter has rotated (inward turn) his lead shoulders away from the pitcher.” So the hips already lead the shoulders by 20 to 30 degrees as the batter prepares his launch position (look at Frame #B).
> > > >
> > > > Frame #C shows that some (not all) batters develop even more separation during their stride. I stated, “The lead knee has started rotating around toward the pitcher;” (not all - after Barry Bonds' stride his lead knee still points more toward the plate than the pitcher). This means the hips now lead the shoulders by approximately 30 degrees. All of this occurred before the swing was fully initiated. From viewing the “Frame-by-Frame” section, everyone should see and understand that the hips lead the shoulders at the “start” of the swing. ---But we must also remember that at the “finish” of the swing, the shoulders will have rotated past (and now lead) the hips. And after full initiation, the hips and shoulders do rotate at the same time. When studying the swing in frame-by-frame motion, you can really see this happening.
> > > >
> > > > I used the term “unison” to denote mechanics that at initiation has all the muscles in the legs and torso contracting in unison to drive shoulder rotation. This is to distinguish it from “sequential” mechanics where the batter first contracts the leg muscles to rotate the hip (while holding the shoulders back) and then later fire the torso muscles.
> > > >
> > > > Note: There is a 3-stage type of mechanics being taught where the batter is taught to (1) stride, (2) use the leg muscles to fully rotate the hips while keeping the shoulders closed (3) fire the arm and torso muscles to bring the hands and rotate the shoulders. --- I refer to the hips rotating while keeping the shoulders closed (no load rotation) as “freewheeling.” For there to be a “kinetic chain” (or rubber-band effect), continuously energy must be supplied from the ground upward to rotate the shoulders. This means, all muscles in the legs and torso must be contracting in “unison,” not “sequentially.”
> > > >
> > > > Although all the muscles are contracting in unison at initiation, the hips will still rotate a few more degrees ahead of the shoulders due to the increased load of accelerating the upper-body mass and overcoming the inertia offered by the bat to acceleration – not from sequential timing.
> > > >
> > > > Jack Mankin
> > >
> > > Jack,
> > >
> > > If I understand you correctly, you would then not be opposed to the idea that most people are too active with the lower half, or maybe a better way of saying it is.....the lower half tends to get too far ahead of the upper half, causing a major disconnect. Pulling off the ball is normally caused by the lower half.....do you agree?
> > >
> > > Coach C
> > > >
> > > > Coach C,
> > Ah,ha... now we see eye to eye on the QUIET lower half. if the hips fully rotate before the shoulders start there acceleration you've lost considerable energy. i don't care how strong your rubber band is. it's like the clutch in a stick shift car... fully engage the clutch plates before you mash the accelerator and you'll avoid slippage and get a smoother, faster take off. to fully engage the clutch i take my stride and slightly rotate the front knee which only slightly rotates the hips(won't rotate any further as the back knee hasn't rotated). at the same time i pull my hands back to my armpit and adduct my rear scalp(i've already preformed my inward torso turn).
> > now the clutch is FULLY emgaged and no slippage is possible. when the hips continue to rotate now the torso HAS to follow and play catch up. and the shoulders have to follow and play catch up. and the arms, hands and bat have to follow and play catch up. by the time they all catch the hips at contact you've created a smooth,loose ever accelerating,powerful swing.(before contact the front scalp is adducted causing the appearance that the shoulders have rotated past the hips. shoulders do continue rotating past contact) if you don't tighten everything up prior to the launch: 1)inward turn 2)front hip rotation on heel drop 3)hands back to armpit 4)adduct the scalp... then the true power of the legs and hips will be wasted due to a faulty kinetic chain. once the clutch is engaged everything is accelerating at full tilt boogy feeding off the hips. does this analogy make any sense??? regards, rich
>
> Yes it does. Most I feel are too loosey goosey with the knees and hip sockets, creating this slippage (not getting the butt into the ball). In addition to that, swaying is a big problem as well. In a nutshell....I like to feel that I am creating one smooth move to the ball, even though video would show hips, shoulders, arms, hands, bat.
>
> Coach C
>
>
>
> If I understand correctly from Mr. Mankin's latest tape,when you stide,you step square landing toe first .From toe touch untill the time it takes for the lead heel to plant, you can /should rotate or turn the heel so that the heel and knee facilitate the opening of the front hip.When the front foot touchs down (when the ball is approximately half way to the plate) ,the shoulders /arms/hands/bat are triggered from the launch position to move forward in order to catch the hips at contact. Does this make sense?


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