Posted by: Doug () on Sat Oct 18 11:59:13 2003

>>> Jack the front shoulder is driven by the hands, whether they go linear or rotational. It's when the front shoulder leads that creates the problems. <<<
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi Coach C
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > How far would you say the hands move before they start driving the shoulder?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Jack Mankin
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sounds like a leading question as it's impossible for the hands to physically drive the shoulders. it's exactly the other way around. get out your kinesiology book. end of discussion. next question?
> > > > >
> > > > > Geez.....thanks Rich.....I got out my kinesiology book and you are exactly right it's impossible. I'm going to read that book further and see how long it takes for me to ruin my swing......I'm guessing first session.
> > > > >
> > > > > The next question for you is this...when you look at Sandman's boy swing....what is right about the swing and what is wrong in your mind.
> > > > >
> > > > > Clearly he is hips, shoulders, hands just like the book says...do you agree?
> > > > >
> > > > > What sound advice would you have for that boy and everyone else participating in the discussion? Feel free to use your book if you want.
> > > > >
> > > > > Coach C
> > > > >
> > > > > Coach C,
> > > > I just reread my post and want to apologize for what seems to me now as a curt last two sentences. what got me involved in this discussion was the reference to lagging hands and quite torso. i like lagging hands, but despise a quite torso. what i really like and teach is a smooth, loose(relaxed as you say) ever accelerating swing.
> > > > to me lagging the hands is keeping the lead arm barred to the chest. if it's not lagging it's not barred and in turn not connected to power of the torso... i can't view the clip so i can't comment on sandman's son, sorry. i enjoy your calmness and humor, thanks, rich
> > >
> > > No sweat Rich. it's fun. I too apoligize. As for bat lag and arms connected to the torso, we agree. This is what gives me fast hands.....I always want to feel that my hands are fast, but the hands themselves are loosey, goosey. The looser my grip, the faster my hands. Looser is faster!!!! I'm trying to figure out a way to post one of my clips, so people can evaluate me.
> > >
> > > Ever notice that in a good pepper player, the hands never roll, there is no need to go past the ball, the only goal is to learn bat angles and catch the ball with the bat. A great swing is an exension of that fundamental in my opinion. I like the heavy bag for feel, but hitting moving objects is baseball and the hands need to be trained the right way. Pepper teaches the hands to work the right way in my opinion.............but no one ever does it, because they think it's boring or they want their kid to just hit far and hard and this is when youngsters get off on the wrong track. Pepper is the baseline for the swing if done properely. Anyway....take care and thanks.
> > >
> > > Coach C
> > >
> > > Now back to my kinesiology book............just kidding!!
> > >
> > > One
> > >
> > > Take care
> > >
> > > Coach C
> > >
> > > Coach C
> > I think i understand what you're trying to convey when you say fast hands(which i think is what concerns many)... is it the hands ability to quickly bring the bathead around thru the strike zone. not necessarily the hands being quick thru the zone. although they will be thru it quickly if connected to the torso. quite torso still has me stumped... come at it from another angle, maybe? regards, rich
>
>
> Rich,
>
> I feel my hands are fast, like a pitcher releasing a ball. I feel tremendous hand and arm speed, but my arms are never straight before contact and always loose. At contact both arms are bent (not always straight), especially on an inside pitch. Quite torso means keeping the shoulders attached in the socket and then rotating. I've heard it mentioned that one should pull the lead shoulder back to the catcher.....I think it's better to say turn both shoulders or (for me) turn the back shoulder through the ball.
>
> Trying for extension of any arm is a big mistake in baseball, although it happens everytime post contact. I want my hands to feel fast and strong through the ball, but they themselves are not doing the work, which makes them fast.
>
> My chief critique in Batspeed.com is that hand speed is not preached, because as you stated, people equate it to the hands doing the most of the work.....but I think it's a relevant feeling that many great hitters feel. I also don't buy into the bar the arm thinking.....mainly because this rarely occurs on the inside pitch, which I think is the only pitch that really matters. When instructional books advocate two hands through the ball, I know exactly what they mean and why it works for many great hitters. Lastly, I want to feel the barrel is always behind me during the swing.
>
> Can you relate to any of this?
>
> Coach C

Coach C, Yes, I can relate to much of what you say. On the keyboard it is not always easy for me to explain myself, but I preach hand strength to young players all the time. I understand hand speed and I want my players to have strong hands also. I like the rotational swing, but when the pitch is on the outside corner, I want strong hands. If the pitch is middle in, and you put a good rotational swing on it, the hands don't need to be as strong, as the rotation will do most of the work. Hand speed and hand strength are two things that most great major league players have.

Doug