Bat Speed -- Baseball Hitting Forum

Posted by: Graylon (g_dunc@hotmail.com) on Wed Feb 20 19:10:28 2008

> > > > >>> I was working a player yesterday. He was staying tall on the rear leg and it was not dropping to parallel. His past tendecy has been to extend the rear leg and extend with rear elbow. Obviously he was not getting a hip turn. I made him sit in on a more bent rear leg. With it more "knock kneed" it served as a better spring. I also made him get more "linebacker" in his set up with the legs more bent at the knees and more spine angle. I asked him to get his rear elbow around and higher at toe touch. IMO rear side momentum comes from the circling and dropping of the rear elbow in the slot and the dropping of the rear knee to parallel. I then asked him to focus on not stopping the hip turn from launch to finish and keep his hips in front of his hands at all times. He did better on many swings but it takes time. <<<
> > > >
> > > > Hi Donny &BHL
> > > >
> > > > BHL, Donny made some good suggestions. – When practicing your swing, it is important to keep in mind that the purpose of swing mechanics is not to get the hips to rotate ahead of the hands and shoulders, or even to take the hands to the zone. The ultimate purpose of all swing mechanics is to attain maximum acceleration of the bat-head around the 'entire' swing plane.
> > > >
> > > > With this in mind, when setting up your practice program, I would suggest that one of the most limiting factors to a hitter’s development is his tendency to only concentrates on those mechanics that swing the bat-head forward toward the ball. However, in a high level swing, before the bat-head arcs forward toward the ball, it must first be accelerated rearward from its launch position behind the head back to the lag position (first 90 degrees of acceleration).
> > > >
> > > > Therefore, as you prepare to initiate your swing, I would suggest you envision mechanics that would accelerate the bat-head around the entire 180+ degrees to contact -- instead of just concentrating on mechanics that accelerate the bat forward the last 90 degrees (from the lag position).
> > > >
> > > > As a hitter initiates the swing, it is very tough to keep his hands back when he is concentrating on swinging the bat-head forward. If a coach would have the hitter envision the bat-head first accelerating back toward the catcher at initiation, the batters hands would have to stay back to accelerate the bat-head in that direction.
> > > >
> > > > When we ask the body to perform an athletic movement, the sub-conscious mind will set up a motor program for the rest of the body to aid in accomplishing the task.
> > > >
> > > > Therefore, I have found that if I can get the batter to correctly envision the bat-head first accelerating rearward to the lag position before he directs his energy toward the ball, the more likely he will generate the most productive hip and shoulder rotation to accomplish the task.
> > > >
> > > > If, on the other hand, the batter’s vision of the swing is only forward, he will have the tendency to first extend the hands. This is mainly accomplished by using the arms to thrust the hands and knob, which does not require good hip and shoulder rotation. With this vision of the swing, keeping the hands back is at odds with his forward vision. He now has to consciously think, “Hips First.” -- Using cues to override a batter’s natural tendency to think forward is not as effective as changing how they invision the swing.
> > > >
> > > > Once I feel the batter is starting to have the correct vision of the swing, I use the cue, “Rotate the heel (initiate lower-body rotation) – Rotate the bat-head (initiate the acceleration back toward the catcher”). I ask the student, “what must you do with the top-hand as your elbow lowers to accelerate the bat-head back at the catcher?” After a few attempts, they learn to hold back (or pull back) the top-hand at the shoulder and allow shoulder rotation to accelerate the bat-head back. When they start to get the bat to accelerate correctly, the hips just naturally rotate ahead of the hands and they have the “L” in the back-leg at contact.
> > > >
> > > > Jack Mankin
> > >
> > >
> > > jack jack jack...
> > > in the plainest and simplest terms when you endorse the buggywhip swing in order to generate batspeed, you MUST realize this action leaves you out of position to hit the overwhelming majority of pitches which are not in the down/in location... this beerbellyball windup creates SUCH a bias, which makes it MUCH more difficult to make contact with far too many pitches..
> > > the reality is you are preaching a tradeoff of hitting a very few pitches a very long way in exchange for a lowered BA
> > > to preach this doctrine to young players who are physically undeveloped & are growing every day is to GUARANTEE FAILURE TO THE MAJORITY OF HITTERS WHO IMPLEMENT THIS THEORY. at the very least they will all underachieve their potential...bad. sad.
> > > my dear jack, you should give up this windup swing which is not the swing of the future.. it is the status quo which ain't so hot..
> > > you need to change up.
> > > firing the swing with the arms & shoulders is wrong wrong wrong.
> > > you think you have enough time to swing the bat 12"-18" BACKWARD
> > > toward the catcher before the bat starts FORWARD?!? on the great majority of pitches, NOT HARDLY...
> > > I am sorry to say after further review, your upper body bias has too great a tradeoff, especially with young developing hitters.
> > > a short base with a short stride..with no buggtwhip windup will make contact with a far greater number of pitches than the beerbellyball windup swing.. sorry, but that is the fact of the matter.
> > > and that ain't gonna chenge.... no matter what you say.
> >
> >
> > George,
> >
> > I've said it before and I'll say it again, YOU ARE AN -----!!!!! Name one hitter now or in the past who has even closely hit the way you describe. You will probably name Paul Molitor as usual and I, as usual will point out that Pauls career BA was .306 and that Barry "buggywhipping" Bonds has a career BA of .298 with a bunch more HRs, and as usual you will not even think about responding because you can't because their career averages are so very close. So please quit talking about your Little League swing that could never work at a higher level.
> >
> > You understand nothing about a high level swing, you know nothing about making adjustments on the fly, YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT HITTING.
> >
> > Graylon
>
>
> HI GRAY!
> SO HAPPY TO READ THAT YOU STILL THINK I KNOW NOTHING... AT LEAST YOU ARE CONSISTENT IN YOUR BELIEF, IF SOMEWHAT MISGUIDED..IF YOU ARE STILL ON THE OTHER SIDE & DISAGREEING WITH ME, THEN I MUST BE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT!!!
> THERE YOU GO AGAIN REFUTING WHAT I SAY BY MENTIONING A PLAYER WHO DOES BUGGYWHIP...YOU WANT TO BLOW UP MY WHOLE THEORY BY MENTIONING ONE NAME... ALL I AM SAYING IS NO MATTER WHO THE HITTER, WHAT HIS NAME IS, HOW MUCH HE MAKES, HE COULD DO BETTER. IF YOU EVER GOT A CHANCE TO TALK TO BONDS, OR ANY MLB HITTER, HE WOULD SAY THE SAME THING... GUARANTEED! ANYONE WHO IS SO SATISFIED WITH HOW THEY GOING THAT THEY DON'T NEED TO MAKE ANY ADJUSTMENTS OR CHANGES IS GOING TO BE GONE- SOON.
> THE GREATEST LEGIT HR HITTER OF ALL TIME, HENRY AARON, WAS EXACTLY THE KIND OF HITTER I AM TALKING ABOUT... SHORT CLOSED STANCE, HANDS UP AND BACK BEHIND HIS FRONT SHOULDER. SHORT STRIDE, RIGHT STRAIGHT AT THE BALL WITH NO DROPPING THE HANDS, NO CIRCLE HITCH NO BEERBELLY BALL WINDUP.. SIMPLE AS COULD BE. KEN GRIFFEY, DEREK JETER, MAGGLIO ORDONEZ (THE AL BATTING CHAMPION IS NOT A BUGGYWHIPPER!), MATT HOLLIDAY (THE NL BATTING CHAMPION IS NOT A BUGGYWHIPPER!), JORGE POSADA, ALFONSO SORIANO, JERMAINE DYE, TERRY TULOWITZKI TO NAME A FEW ALL HAVE THE KINDS OF STANCES & SWING I ENDORSE.NONE ARE PERFECT, & ALL HAVE SOME HOLE IN EITHER THEIR STANCE OR SWING.. I DON'T WATCH ANYONE EXCEPT THE WHITESOX & WHOEVER THEY ARE PLAYING, SO I DON'T HAVE A LIST OF THOSE HITTERS WHO ARE IMPLEMENTING THE STANCE AND SWING I ENDORSE. BUT THERE A LOT OF THEM OUT THERE.. YOUR BUGGYWHIPPERS ARE IN THE MAJORITY, BUT I HAVE NO PROBLEM IDENTIFYING LOTS OF HITTERS WHO ARE NOT BUGGYWHIPPERS. THE BEST THINGS BONDS DOES IS HE IS ON TOP OF THE PLATE SO HE IS NOT DIVING OR REACHING ON OUTSIDE PITCHES... ADD TO THAT HE RARELY HACKS AT SLOP.. THOSE ARE THE 2 MOST IMPORTANT THINGS A HITTER CAN DO FOR HIMSELF..HE IS LOOKING FOR A PITCH IN A CERTAIN SPOT, & NOT SLASHING AT ANYTHING NO MATTER IF HE HAS 2 STRIKES..HE HAS A SHORT CLOSED STANCE, & DOES IN FACT BUGGYWHIP TO SOME EXTENT.. HE ALSO HAS HIS HANDS TOO LOW, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND HE DOES NOT CHASE MANY PITCHES UP IN THE ZONE, WHERE HE WOULD BE VERY LIKELY TO BE LATE AND FOUL OFF OR POP UP THAT PITCH... SO HE IS AHEAD OF THE CURVE IN THAT RESPECT.
> RH HITTERS WHO HAVE THEIR BAT POINTING AT THE SS ARE SHOOTING THEMSELVES IN THE FOOT WITH THEIR TOO LONG SWING.. IRREFUTABLE. PERIOD.. WHEN YOU SHORTEN THE BACKSWING, YOU GET TO MORE PITCHES.. YOU WILL STILL GET THOSE DOWN/IN PITCHES THAT YOU CAN CRUSH FOR A HR.. BUT YOU WILL ALSO GET TO MANY OTHER PITCHES YOU ARE NOW FOULING OFF OR POPPING UP.
> YOU REFUTE MY THEORY WITH A MONKEY-SEE-MONKEY-DO DEFENSE.. DOESN'T HOLD MUCH WATER

George,

What you say Doesn't hold water, Why? Because all of the hitters you name have very similar or even the exact swing mechanics as everyone I have ever mentioned. Watch them from the launch position. Regardless of how they get there they all look pretty similar from that point on. The bat still turns rearward and then turns toward the ball. The front hip clears early and the shoulders stay closed. Watch the front knee as the stride foot nears touch down it is opening allowing the front hip to open, getting the running start in the lower body. The barrel is torqued rearward the shoulders tilt and the barrel is sent in to the path of the ball on an upward angle. Same angle the pitch is coming in on.

Graylon

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> > > > > >>> I was working a player yesterday. He was staying tall on the rear leg and it was not dropping to parallel. His past tendecy has been to extend the rear leg and extend with rear elbow. Obviously he was not getting a hip turn. I made him sit in on a more bent rear leg. With it more "knock kneed" it served as a better spring. I also made him get more "linebacker" in his set up with the legs more bent at the knees and more spine angle. I asked him to get his rear elbow around and higher at toe touch. IMO rear side momentum comes from the circling and dropping of the rear elbow in the slot and the dropping of the rear knee to parallel. I then asked him to focus on not stopping the hip turn from launch to finish and keep his hips in front of his hands at all times. He did better on many swings but it takes time. <<<
> > > > > 
> > > > > Hi Donny &BHL
> > > > > 
> > > > > BHL, Donny made some good suggestions. – When practicing your swing, it is important to keep in mind that the purpose of swing mechanics is not to get the hips to rotate ahead of the hands and shoulders, or even to take the hands to the zone. The ultimate purpose of all swing mechanics is to attain maximum acceleration of the bat-head around the 'entire' swing plane. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > With this in mind, when setting up your practice program, I would suggest that one of the most limiting factors to a hitter’s development is his tendency to only concentrates on those mechanics that swing the bat-head forward toward the ball. However, in a high level swing, before the bat-head arcs forward toward the ball, it must first be accelerated rearward from its launch position behind the head back to the lag position (first 90 degrees of acceleration). 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Therefore, as you prepare to initiate your swing, I would suggest you envision mechanics that would accelerate the bat-head around the entire 180+ degrees to contact -- instead of just concentrating on mechanics that accelerate the bat forward the last 90 degrees (from the lag position). 
> > > > > 
> > > > > As a hitter initiates the swing, it is very tough to keep his hands back when he is concentrating on swinging the bat-head forward. If a coach would have the hitter envision the bat-head first accelerating back toward the catcher at initiation, the batters hands would have to stay back to accelerate the bat-head in that direction.  
> > > > > 
> > > > > When we ask the body to perform an athletic movement, the sub-conscious mind will set up a motor program for the rest of the body to aid in accomplishing the task. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Therefore, I have found that if I can get the batter to correctly envision the bat-head first accelerating rearward to the lag position before he directs his energy toward the ball, the more likely he will generate the most productive hip and shoulder rotation to accomplish the task. 
> > > > > 
> > > > >  If, on the other hand, the batter’s vision of the swing is only forward, he will have the tendency to first extend the hands. This is mainly accomplished by using the arms to thrust the hands and knob, which does not require good hip and shoulder rotation. With this vision of the swing, keeping the hands back is at odds with his forward vision. He now has to consciously think, “Hips First.” -- Using cues to override a batter’s natural tendency to think forward is not as effective as changing how they invision the swing.  
> > > > > 
> > > > > Once I feel the batter is starting to have the correct vision of the swing, I use the cue, “Rotate the heel (initiate lower-body rotation) – Rotate the bat-head (initiate the acceleration back toward the catcher”). I ask the student, “what must you do with the top-hand as your elbow lowers to accelerate the bat-head back at the catcher?” After a few attempts, they learn to hold back (or pull back) the top-hand at the shoulder and allow shoulder rotation to accelerate the bat-head back. When they start to get the bat to accelerate correctly, the hips just naturally rotate ahead of the hands and they have the “L” in the back-leg at contact. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Jack Mankin
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > jack jack jack...
> > > > in the plainest and simplest terms when you endorse  the buggywhip swing in order to generate batspeed, you MUST realize this action leaves you out of position to hit the overwhelming majority of pitches which are not in the down/in location... this beerbellyball windup creates SUCH a bias, which makes it MUCH more difficult to make contact with far too many pitches.. 
> > > > the reality is you are preaching a tradeoff of hitting a very few pitches a very long way in exchange for a lowered BA
> > > > to preach this doctrine to young players who are physically undeveloped & are growing every day is to GUARANTEE FAILURE TO THE MAJORITY OF HITTERS WHO IMPLEMENT THIS THEORY. at the very least they will all underachieve their potential...bad.  sad.
> > > > my dear jack, you should give up this windup swing which is not the swing of the future.. it is the status quo which ain't so hot..
> > > > you need to change up.
> > > > firing the swing with the arms & shoulders is wrong wrong wrong.
> > > > you think you have enough time to swing the bat 12"-18" BACKWARD
> > > > toward the catcher before the bat starts FORWARD?!?  on the great majority of pitches, NOT HARDLY...
> > > > I am sorry to say after further review, your upper body bias has too great a tradeoff, especially with young developing hitters.
> > > > a short base with a short stride..with no buggtwhip windup will make contact with a far greater number of pitches than the beerbellyball windup swing..  sorry, but that is the fact of the matter.
> > > > and that ain't gonna chenge.... no matter what you say.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > George,
> > > 
> > > I've said it before and I'll say it again, YOU ARE AN -----!!!!! Name one hitter now or in the past who has even closely hit the way you describe. You will probably name Paul Molitor as usual and I, as usual will point out that Pauls career BA was .306 and that Barry "buggywhipping" Bonds has a career BA of .298 with a bunch more HRs, and as usual you will not even think about responding because you can't because their career averages are so very close. So please quit talking about your Little League swing that could never work at a higher level.
> > > 
> > > You understand nothing about a high level swing, you know nothing about making adjustments on the fly, YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT HITTING.
> > > 
> > > Graylon
> > 
> > 
> > HI GRAY!
> > SO HAPPY  TO READ THAT YOU STILL THINK I KNOW NOTHING... AT LEAST YOU ARE CONSISTENT IN YOUR BELIEF, IF SOMEWHAT MISGUIDED..IF YOU ARE STILL ON THE OTHER SIDE & DISAGREEING WITH ME, THEN I MUST BE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT!!!
> > THERE YOU GO AGAIN REFUTING WHAT I SAY BY MENTIONING A PLAYER WHO DOES BUGGYWHIP...YOU WANT TO BLOW UP MY WHOLE THEORY BY MENTIONING ONE NAME...  ALL I AM SAYING IS NO MATTER WHO THE HITTER, WHAT HIS NAME IS, HOW MUCH HE MAKES, HE COULD DO BETTER. IF YOU EVER GOT A CHANCE TO TALK TO BONDS, OR ANY MLB HITTER, HE WOULD SAY THE SAME THING... GUARANTEED! ANYONE WHO IS SO SATISFIED WITH HOW THEY GOING THAT THEY DON'T NEED TO MAKE ANY ADJUSTMENTS OR CHANGES IS GOING TO BE GONE- SOON.
> > THE GREATEST LEGIT HR HITTER OF ALL TIME, HENRY AARON, WAS EXACTLY THE KIND OF HITTER I AM TALKING ABOUT... SHORT CLOSED STANCE, HANDS UP AND BACK BEHIND HIS FRONT SHOULDER. SHORT STRIDE, RIGHT STRAIGHT AT THE BALL WITH NO DROPPING THE HANDS, NO CIRCLE HITCH NO BEERBELLY BALL WINDUP.. SIMPLE AS COULD BE.  KEN GRIFFEY, DEREK JETER, MAGGLIO ORDONEZ (THE AL BATTING CHAMPION IS NOT A BUGGYWHIPPER!), MATT HOLLIDAY (THE NL BATTING CHAMPION IS NOT A BUGGYWHIPPER!), JORGE POSADA, ALFONSO SORIANO, JERMAINE DYE, TERRY TULOWITZKI TO NAME A FEW ALL HAVE THE KINDS OF STANCES & SWING I ENDORSE.NONE ARE PERFECT, & ALL HAVE SOME HOLE IN EITHER THEIR STANCE OR SWING.. I DON'T WATCH ANYONE EXCEPT THE WHITESOX & WHOEVER THEY ARE PLAYING, SO I DON'T HAVE A LIST OF THOSE HITTERS WHO ARE IMPLEMENTING THE STANCE AND SWING I ENDORSE.  BUT THERE A LOT OF THEM OUT THERE.. YOUR BUGGYWHIPPERS ARE IN THE MAJORITY, BUT I HAVE NO PROBLEM IDENTIFYING LOTS OF HITTERS WHO ARE NOT BUGGYWHIPPERS. THE BEST THINGS BONDS DOES IS HE IS ON TOP OF THE PLATE SO HE IS NOT DIVING OR REACHING ON OUTSIDE PITCHES... ADD TO THAT HE RARELY HACKS AT SLOP.. THOSE ARE THE 2 MOST IMPORTANT THINGS A HITTER CAN DO FOR HIMSELF..HE IS LOOKING FOR A PITCH IN A CERTAIN SPOT, & NOT SLASHING AT ANYTHING NO MATTER IF HE HAS 2 STRIKES..HE HAS A SHORT CLOSED STANCE, & DOES IN FACT BUGGYWHIP TO SOME EXTENT.. HE ALSO HAS HIS HANDS TOO LOW, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND HE DOES NOT CHASE MANY PITCHES UP IN THE ZONE, WHERE HE WOULD BE VERY LIKELY TO BE LATE AND FOUL OFF OR POP UP THAT PITCH... SO HE IS AHEAD OF THE CURVE IN THAT  RESPECT.
> > RH HITTERS WHO HAVE THEIR BAT POINTING AT THE SS ARE SHOOTING THEMSELVES IN THE FOOT WITH THEIR TOO LONG SWING.. IRREFUTABLE. PERIOD.. WHEN YOU SHORTEN THE BACKSWING, YOU GET TO MORE PITCHES.. YOU WILL  STILL GET THOSE DOWN/IN PITCHES THAT YOU CAN CRUSH FOR A HR.. BUT YOU WILL ALSO GET TO MANY OTHER PITCHES YOU ARE NOW FOULING OFF OR POPPING UP.
> > YOU REFUTE MY THEORY WITH A MONKEY-SEE-MONKEY-DO DEFENSE.. DOESN'T HOLD MUCH WATER
> 
> 
> George,
> 
> What you say Doesn't hold water, Why? Because all of the hitters you name have very similar or even the exact swing mechanics as everyone I have ever mentioned. Watch them from the launch position. Regardless of how they get there they all look pretty similar from that point on. The bat still turns rearward and then turns toward the ball. The front hip clears early and the shoulders stay closed. Watch the front knee as the stride foot nears touch down it is opening allowing the front hip to open, getting the running start in the lower body. The barrel is torqued rearward the shoulders tilt and the barrel is sent in to the path of the ball on an upward angle. Same angle the pitch is coming in on.
> 
> Graylon

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