Bat Speed -- Baseball Hitting Forum

Posted by: coach13 (halour@netscape.net) on Sat Feb 16 09:36:05 2008

> > > > > > > > > > >>> I was working a player yesterday. He was staying tall on the rear leg and it was not dropping to parallel. His past tendecy has been to extend the rear leg and extend with rear elbow. Obviously he was not getting a hip turn. I made him sit in on a more bent rear leg. With it more "knock kneed" it served as a better spring. I also made him get more "linebacker" in his set up with the legs more bent at the knees and more spine angle. I asked him to get his rear elbow around and higher at toe touch. IMO rear side momentum comes from the circling and dropping of the rear elbow in the slot and the dropping of the rear knee to parallel. I then asked him to focus on not stopping the hip turn from launch to finish and keep his hips in front of his hands at all times. He did better on many swings but it takes time. <<<
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Hi Donny &BHL
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > BHL, Donny made some good suggestions. – When practicing your swing, it is important to keep in mind that the purpose of swing mechanics is not to get the hips to rotate ahead of the hands and shoulders, or even to take the hands to the zone. The ultimate purpose of all swing mechanics is to attain maximum acceleration of the bat-head around the 'entire' swing plane.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > With this in mind, when setting up your practice program, I would suggest that one of the most limiting factors to a hitter’s development is his tendency to only concentrates on those mechanics that swing the bat-head forward toward the ball. However, in a high level swing, before the bat-head arcs forward toward the ball, it must first be accelerated rearward from its launch position behind the head back to the lag position (first 90 degrees of acceleration).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Therefore, as you prepare to initiate your swing, I would suggest you envision mechanics that would accelerate the bat-head around the entire 180+ degrees to contact -- instead of just concentrating on mechanics that accelerate the bat forward the last 90 degrees (from the lag position).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > As a hitter initiates the swing, it is very tough to keep his hands back when he is concentrating on swinging the bat-head forward. If a coach would have the hitter envision the bat-head first accelerating back toward the catcher at initiation, the batters hands would have to stay back to accelerate the bat-head in that direction.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > When we ask the body to perform an athletic movement, the sub-conscious mind will set up a motor program for the rest of the body to aid in accomplishing the task.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Therefore, I have found that if I can get the batter to correctly envision the bat-head first accelerating rearward to the lag position before he directs his energy toward the ball, the more likely he will generate the most productive hip and shoulder rotation to accomplish the task.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If, on the other hand, the batter’s vision of the swing is only forward, he will have the tendency to first extend the hands. This is mainly accomplished by using the arms to thrust the hands and knob, which does not require good hip and shoulder rotation. With this vision of the swing, keeping the hands back is at odds with his forward vision. He now has to consciously think, “Hips First.” -- Using cues to override a batter’s natural tendency to think forward is not as effective as changing how they invision the swing.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Once I feel the batter is starting to have the correct vision of the swing, I use the cue, “Rotate the heel (initiate lower-body rotation) – Rotate the bat-head (initiate the acceleration back toward the catcher”). I ask the student, “what must you do with the top-hand as your elbow lowers to accelerate the bat-head back at the catcher?” After a few attempts, they learn to hold back (or pull back) the top-hand at the shoulder and allow shoulder rotation to accelerate the bat-head back. When they start to get the bat to accelerate correctly, the hips just naturally rotate ahead of the hands and they have the “L” in the back-leg at contact.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Jack Mankin
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > jack jack jack...
> > > > > > > > > in the plainest and simplest terms when you endorse the buggywhip swing in order to generate batspeed, you MUST realize this action leaves you out of position to hit the overwhelming majority of pitches which are not in the down/in location... this beerbellyball windup creates SUCH a bias, which makes it MUCH more difficult to make contact with far too many pitches..
> > > > > > > > > the reality is you are preaching a tradeoff of hitting a very few pitches a very long way in exchange for a lowered BA
> > > > > > > > > to preach this doctrine to young players who are physically undeveloped & are growing every day is to GUARANTEE FAILURE TO THE MAJORITY OF HITTERS WHO IMPLEMENT THIS THEORY. at the very least they will all underachieve their potential...bad. sad.
> > > > > > > > > my dear jack, you should give up this windup swing which is not the swing of the future.. it is the status quo which ain't so hot..
> > > > > > > > > you need to change up.
> > > > > > > > > firing the swing with the arms & shoulders is wrong wrong wrong.
> > > > > > > > > you think you have enough time to swing the bat 12"-18" BACKWARD
> > > > > > > > > toward the catcher before the bat starts FORWARD?!? on the great majority of pitches, NOT HARDLY...
> > > > > > > > > I am sorry to say after further review, your upper body bias has too great a tradeoff, especially with young developing hitters.
> > > > > > > > > a short base with a short stride..with no buggtwhip windup will make contact with a far greater number of pitches than the beerbellyball windup swing.. sorry, but that is the fact of the matter.
> > > > > > > > > and that ain't gonna chenge.... no matter what you say.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > George,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I've said it before and I'll say it again, YOU ARE AN -----!!!!! Name one hitter now or in the past who has even closely hit the way you describe. You will probably name Paul Molitor as usual and I, as usual will point out that Pauls career BA was .306 and that Barry "buggywhipping" Bonds has a career BA of .298 with a bunch more HRs, and as usual you will not even think about responding because you can't because their career averages are so very close. So please quit talking about your Little League swing that could never work at a higher level.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You understand nothing about a high level swing, you know nothing about making adjustments on the fly, YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT HITTING.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Graylon
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Graylon,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Calm down big fella...You know some things about hitting but if you knew as much as you thought you did, you would understand that Bonds doesn't hit the way Jack teaches.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Jimmy
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Then the digital camera and digital photography are liars.
> > > > >
> > > > > No liars involved, just poor interpretation of the footage.
> > > >
> > > > Correct and when what can be seen and doesnt have to be interpreted and when what is seen is taught with out a bunch of B.S. and when what is seen is utilized by players and dramatic results are displayed and batting averages go up dramatically and power numbers go up dramatically because what is seen is understood and doesnt have to be "Interperted" (bla,bla,bla,bla) But of coures none of this matters because it is the interpertation that has to be gaurded and protected the results and the truth are not what is important.
> > >
> > > Your dramatic results and truth are one thing at one level of baseball. If this were taught at the highest level of baseball in order to achieve the footage you are watching, I would agree with you...but they are certainly not.
> > >
> > > The footage you see is not achieved by the ideas you claim to be truth. I know this not from opinion but from many years of experience.
> > >
> > > Jimmy
> >
> > Culture change is slow digital photography (the availability of seeing 1000 pics. per second to see EXACTLY what players are doing to acomplish what they do is a NEW SCIENCE. Slow motion tech. has advanced profoundly in recent years. Just because atheletes are taught and believe they do what they are taught doesnt translate into reality. Most great hitters are great inspite of what they are taught not because of it. When Don Slaught showed Barry Bonds what his swing plane actually looked like. He had no idea that his PERCEPTION was totally different than the reality of what his swing plane looked like. His recent comments about what a swing entails should convince everyone that perceptions are difficult to overcome. I can give you an example of a college softball player that changed to the rotational concept and her numbers went through the roof. Lifetime B.A. .402 in sport where pitching dominates. Her slugging % was over .700. When atheletes understand what they do to excell and practice drills that enhance these concepts they will excell. I believe when open minds question perception and are not blinded by experience reality will be discovered.
>
> You are acting as if I have not watched 1000's of hours of film of 100's of different hitters. I do know that the swing that you see on film is different than what many believe to be reality. This isn't new.
>
> The hitters that really excel do not try to achieve the result that they see on film. The result that they see is a byproduct of a systematic process that one must feel out for themselves.
>
> One hitter may feel one thing while one may feel another, but they both achieve the same result that we see on film.
>
> And your softball example isn't unique. I'm sure that the approach that she was using before making the adjustment was crap. The way hitting is taught to those girls is ridiculous.
>
> The rotational approach that she learned was probably better than what she was doing. But that doesn't mean that she found the best approach, and I'm sure she didn't reach her full potential. A better approach isn't always the best approach.
>
> Jimmy

The person that believes that he has all of the answers is typically behind the learning curve. Having an open mind cures most of the ignorant. I know if the college softball player would have followed your advice she never would have struck out and she would get a home run every time she got up to bat. Who gets to determine the BEST approach. That is what is great about this forum. Open discussion people sharing ideas. What has worked, what hasnt.

coach13

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> > > > > > > > > > > >>> I was working a player yesterday. He was staying tall on the rear leg and it was not dropping to parallel. His past tendecy has been to extend the rear leg and extend with rear elbow. Obviously he was not getting a hip turn. I made him sit in on a more bent rear leg. With it more "knock kneed" it served as a better spring. I also made him get more "linebacker" in his set up with the legs more bent at the knees and more spine angle. I asked him to get his rear elbow around and higher at toe touch. IMO rear side momentum comes from the circling and dropping of the rear elbow in the slot and the dropping of the rear knee to parallel. I then asked him to focus on not stopping the hip turn from launch to finish and keep his hips in front of his hands at all times. He did better on many swings but it takes time. <<<
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > Hi Donny &BHL
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > BHL, Donny made some good suggestions. – When practicing your swing, it is important to keep in mind that the purpose of swing mechanics is not to get the hips to rotate ahead of the hands and shoulders, or even to take the hands to the zone. The ultimate purpose of all swing mechanics is to attain maximum acceleration of the bat-head around the 'entire' swing plane. 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > With this in mind, when setting up your practice program, I would suggest that one of the most limiting factors to a hitter’s development is his tendency to only concentrates on those mechanics that swing the bat-head forward toward the ball. However, in a high level swing, before the bat-head arcs forward toward the ball, it must first be accelerated rearward from its launch position behind the head back to the lag position (first 90 degrees of acceleration). 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, as you prepare to initiate your swing, I would suggest you envision mechanics that would accelerate the bat-head around the entire 180+ degrees to contact -- instead of just concentrating on mechanics that accelerate the bat forward the last 90 degrees (from the lag position). 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > As a hitter initiates the swing, it is very tough to keep his hands back when he is concentrating on swinging the bat-head forward. If a coach would have the hitter envision the bat-head first accelerating back toward the catcher at initiation, the batters hands would have to stay back to accelerate the bat-head in that direction.  
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > When we ask the body to perform an athletic movement, the sub-conscious mind will set up a motor program for the rest of the body to aid in accomplishing the task. 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, I have found that if I can get the batter to correctly envision the bat-head first accelerating rearward to the lag position before he directs his energy toward the ball, the more likely he will generate the most productive hip and shoulder rotation to accomplish the task. 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > >  If, on the other hand, the batter’s vision of the swing is only forward, he will have the tendency to first extend the hands. This is mainly accomplished by using the arms to thrust the hands and knob, which does not require good hip and shoulder rotation. With this vision of the swing, keeping the hands back is at odds with his forward vision. He now has to consciously think, “Hips First.” -- Using cues to override a batter’s natural tendency to think forward is not as effective as changing how they invision the swing.  
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > Once I feel the batter is starting to have the correct vision of the swing, I use the cue, “Rotate the heel (initiate lower-body rotation) – Rotate the bat-head (initiate the acceleration back toward the catcher”). I ask the student, “what must you do with the top-hand as your elbow lowers to accelerate the bat-head back at the catcher?” After a few attempts, they learn to hold back (or pull back) the top-hand at the shoulder and allow shoulder rotation to accelerate the bat-head back. When they start to get the bat to accelerate correctly, the hips just naturally rotate ahead of the hands and they have the “L” in the back-leg at contact. 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > Jack Mankin
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > jack jack jack...
> > > > > > > > > > in the plainest and simplest terms when you endorse  the buggywhip swing in order to generate batspeed, you MUST realize this action leaves you out of position to hit the overwhelming majority of pitches which are not in the down/in location... this beerbellyball windup creates SUCH a bias, which makes it MUCH more difficult to make contact with far too many pitches.. 
> > > > > > > > > > the reality is you are preaching a tradeoff of hitting a very few pitches a very long way in exchange for a lowered BA
> > > > > > > > > > to preach this doctrine to young players who are physically undeveloped & are growing every day is to GUARANTEE FAILURE TO THE MAJORITY OF HITTERS WHO IMPLEMENT THIS THEORY. at the very least they will all underachieve their potential...bad.  sad.
> > > > > > > > > > my dear jack, you should give up this windup swing which is not the swing of the future.. it is the status quo which ain't so hot..
> > > > > > > > > > you need to change up.
> > > > > > > > > > firing the swing with the arms & shoulders is wrong wrong wrong.
> > > > > > > > > > you think you have enough time to swing the bat 12"-18" BACKWARD
> > > > > > > > > > toward the catcher before the bat starts FORWARD?!?  on the great majority of pitches, NOT HARDLY...
> > > > > > > > > > I am sorry to say after further review, your upper body bias has too great a tradeoff, especially with young developing hitters.
> > > > > > > > > > a short base with a short stride..with no buggtwhip windup will make contact with a far greater number of pitches than the beerbellyball windup swing..  sorry, but that is the fact of the matter.
> > > > > > > > > > and that ain't gonna chenge.... no matter what you say.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > George,
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > I've said it before and I'll say it again, YOU ARE AN -----!!!!! Name one hitter now or in the past who has even closely hit the way you describe. You will probably name Paul Molitor as usual and I, as usual will point out that Pauls career BA was .306 and that Barry "buggywhipping" Bonds has a career BA of .298 with a bunch more HRs, and as usual you will not even think about responding because you can't because their career averages are so very close. So please quit talking about your Little League swing that could never work at a higher level.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > You understand nothing about a high level swing, you know nothing about making adjustments on the fly, YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT HITTING.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Graylon
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Graylon,
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Calm down big fella...You know some things about hitting but if you knew as much as you thought you did, you would understand that Bonds doesn't hit the way Jack teaches.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Jimmy
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Then the digital camera and digital photography are liars.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > No liars involved, just poor interpretation of the footage.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Correct and when what can be seen and doesnt have to be interpreted and when what is seen is taught with out a bunch of B.S. and when what is seen is utilized by players and dramatic results are displayed and batting averages go up dramatically and power numbers go up dramatically because what is seen is understood and doesnt have to be "Interperted" (bla,bla,bla,bla) But of coures none of this matters because it is the interpertation that has to be gaurded and protected the results and the truth are not what is important.
> > > > 
> > > > Your dramatic results and truth are one thing at one level of baseball. If this were taught at the highest level of baseball in order to achieve the footage you are watching, I would agree with you...but they are certainly not. 
> > > > 
> > > > The footage you see is not achieved by the ideas you claim to be truth. I know this not from opinion but from many years of experience.
> > > > 
> > > > Jimmy
> > > 
> > > Culture change is slow digital photography (the availability of seeing 1000 pics. per second to see EXACTLY what players are doing to acomplish what they do is a NEW SCIENCE. Slow motion tech. has advanced profoundly in recent years. Just because atheletes are taught and believe they do what they are taught doesnt translate into reality. Most great hitters are great inspite of what they are taught not because of it. When Don Slaught showed Barry Bonds what his swing plane actually looked like. He had no idea that his PERCEPTION was totally different than the reality of what his swing plane looked like. His recent comments about what a swing entails should convince everyone that perceptions are difficult to overcome. I can give you an example of a college softball player that changed to the rotational concept and her numbers went through the roof. Lifetime B.A. .402 in  sport where pitching dominates. Her slugging % was over .700. When atheletes understand what they do to excell and practice drills that enhance these concepts they will excell. I believe when open minds question perception and are not blinded by experience reality will be discovered.
> > 
> > You are acting as if I have not watched 1000's of hours of film of 100's of different hitters. I do know that the swing that you see on film is different than what many believe to be reality. This isn't new. 
> > 
> > The hitters that really excel do not try to achieve the result that they see on film. The result that they see is a byproduct of a systematic process that one must feel out for themselves. 
> > 
> > One hitter may feel one thing while one may feel another, but they both achieve the same result that we see on film.
> > 
> > And your softball example isn't unique. I'm sure that the approach that she was using before making the adjustment was crap. The way hitting is taught to those girls is ridiculous. 
> > 
> > The rotational approach that she learned was probably better than what she was doing. But that doesn't mean that she found the best approach, and I'm sure she didn't reach her full potential. A better approach isn't always the best approach.
> > 
> > Jimmy
> 
> The person that believes that he has all of the answers is typically behind the learning curve. Having an open mind cures most of the ignorant. I know if the college softball player would have followed your advice she never would have struck out and she would get a home run every time she got up to bat. Who gets to determine the BEST approach. That is what is great about this forum. Open discussion people sharing ideas. What has worked, what hasnt. 
> 
> coach13

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