Posted by: bart () on Thu Aug 21 10:14:52 2003

Hi Bart
> > > > >
> > > > > You stated: “williams is not the best hitter to have a clip...you don't want to look like williams.” What do you consider to be flaws or bad mechanics found in William’s swing that are not found in other great hitters? And, what would you say he has that would allow him to produce as he did with what you consider a poor swing?
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> > > > > Jack Mankin
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> > > > hi, jack...without being able to use a clip to demonstrate it will be hard, but i'll try to explain...the one biggest objection is the way he would, after launch position (1) have his back elbow way too low
> > > > (2) let the barrel of the bat prematurely flatten out & then dip.....
> > > >
> > > > how could he produce so well with such a "poor swing"?....well, i think others have previously pointed that many great hitters who deviated from our ideal model swing have managed to produce....it worked for him and that's what counts....i'm just saying that if you compare his swing, frame by frame with bonds & many other greats, williams swing deviates from the norm...i simply think it's better to emulate the swing of many greats rrather than the swing of someone who was the exception....
> > > >
> > > > and jack, you have previously agreed that macgwire & griffey swung with full x-t and with sucess, but i'm sure you would not reccomend their swing as the ideal one to emulate....i'm sure, that as sucessful as bagwell is, you would not reccomend his swing as the ideal one....
> > >
> > > Who would in their right mind want to swing like the greatest hitter who ever lived??
> >
> > hitman, you miss the point...you seem to be fully convinced that "rotational" hitting, not "linear" is the way to go...i know from your posts in the past that you do not believe in full x-t....but if you were to look at some clips of mantle, ott, and musial, not to mention macgwire & griffey jr, they all made contact at full x-t...some people might sarcastically as "who would in their right mind want to swing like mantle, ott, musial, macgwire and griffey jr"?
>
> Hi
>
> If "many great hitters" can "deviate" from an "ideal model of the swing" (Bart's words), I suggest we modify our ideal model of the swing.
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> Isn't it a little counter-intuitive to create a model of performance that excludes many of the expert practitioners?
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> Essentially, you are saying that you know more about hitting than Ted Williams did. YOU know that he deviated "from the ideal model", while HE obviously wasn't aware of that, or else he would have complied. That's what "ideal" means. "Universal; perfect."
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> What is so horrible about the way Ted's back elbow worked? Does it lead to weak grounders? What about dreaded pop flies? Maybe it makes you swing and miss a lot. In reality, you would pay any price to have Ted's swing, or get it for your players or children.
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> Melvin
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> good grief, melvin, you are really making a mountain out of a molehill.....i guess your point is that if so many great hitters deviate from the perfect model, why have a model in the first place?....

well, i will start out by pointing out that you, jack, myself, tom guerry and others have our own personal concept of the ideal model, and while there may be some variances among us, overall jack's model is a fairly accurate composite of all of our own ideal models...all i did was to point out that williams, ott, musial and others do not conform to this model....that doesn't mean our model is wrong and useless, it does not mean these hitters were not so great afterall.....it simply means that if you desire to have a model for which young hitters might want to emulate you have to use hitters who happen to conform to that model.....