Posted by: Teacherman () on Thu Jul 31 20:29:25 2003

>>> Thank you for clarifying that this is a hitting forum. I can see that you have some knowledge of hitting. The analogy applies because the body performs simple functions in the same manner. The complexity of hitting is not in how you swing the bat, but in the hand/eye coordination it takes to actually make contact. Over analyzing human movement complicates the issue which is what has been done by many self-proclaimed hitting gurus. throwing in the manner describd requires identical mechanics to swing a bat, golf club, tennis racket and many other activities that involve the arms and hands. Don't over complicate it. The swing is simple. Making contact is the hard part. <<<
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> > > > > > > Hi Dr. David Chambers
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> > > > > > > I doubt that anyone would disagree that hand/eye coordination plays a major role in the baseball swing. But at the same time, the quality and consistency of the batter’s swing plane also has an enormous bearing on the batter’s ability to make solid contact. I have found that in most cases, when a good hitter goes into a batting slump, a definable change can be noted in his swing plane. Flaws in the swing plane are the result of flaws in the batter’s swing mechanics.
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> > > > > > > As I pointed out above, variations in a batter’s swing mechanics has a great effect on a batters ability to make contact. And, I think you will find that gaining an understanding of what constitutes efficient or flawed mechanics is not as easy as you make it out to be.
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> > > > > > > P.S. You stated “throwing in the manner describd requires identical mechanics to swing a bat, golf club, tennis racket and many other activities that involve the arms and hands.” Dr. Chambers, that sounds like an off-the-cuff statement, not something that has been thought through.
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> > > > > > > Jack Mankin
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> > > > > > Mr. Mankin,
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> > > > > > Thank you for your response. I agree that the changes made by athletes is in their swing mechanics when they begin to struggle. In fact, I agree that the complexity of the swing as labeled by hitting instructors invalid. The human body does things naturally based upon the physically ability of the individual. Instructors try to take a natural movement and make changes to it without regard for the individuals strengths. My comment about the similarities of swinging a bat and throwing a ball are very well thought out and accurate. A right handed side arm throw (similar to skipping a rock across a pond) requires identical mechanics to a right handed batter. the hips begin to rotate, followed by the back elbow which pulls the hand and ball (or bat) and is more accurate. it also gives the athlete more control. Simple knowledge of neuromuscular recruitment and coordination contribute to our knowledge that we all have a side that is stronger and more coordinated than the other side. If this were not true the you, Mr. Mankin could throw a ball the same distance in any manner with either hand. We can look at video and see what ever we want to see.
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> > > > > Dr Dave-
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> > > > > You and Jim Dixon would get along famously.You 2 could start the see the ball-hit the ball website together to make sure kids learn not to lose their natural learning ability that would result in perfect swings if people would just leave them alone.
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> > > > > I would say this approach is doomed to failure,especially in today's culture where kids don't just go out and do it all day long at an early age.As Nyman says from the motor learning perspective,learning these skills is just trial and error and blind luck.However,there isn't enough trial and error anymore so you need to see if you can find some sort of structure to improve on the blind luck part.When you do this you realize there are some useful pinciples that can improve your odds,but they are not what you suggest.Arm action is significantly different in throwing(acceleration primarily via internal rotation),hitting( bat acceleration not driven by internal rotation).
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> > > > > Arm action/"transfer mechanics" are also quite distinct between golf(double pendulum) and hitting(handpath hook).Your remarks are indeed off the cuff and inaccurate.You seem blissfully unaware of motor learning,motor control and biomechanical principles among others.Remain blissfully unaware or start getting yourself up to speed.If you choose the latter you might want to check out
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> > > > > http://www.setpro.com/stuff/CBNpart3revised.pdf
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> > > > Tom, Checked out the above at setpro and it was all about throwing, not hitting. Some good info, and was an interesting read. I think he could make more headway if he concentrated on what he believes in and spent less time worrying about what other net gurus do. Write what it takes to improve your throwing/hitting and get to the point. After a paragraph or two, people will lose interest. Comming down on other people will not make you more popular or sell more products. I have dealt with many of his followers, and they don't have his knowledge, but have copied the personality very well.
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> > > > Doug
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> > > Thank you gentlemen for you responses. Is it really necessary though to make disparaging comments about me because you don't understand the concept. Perhaps you should get out of your box and think a little bit about how the body works and and how motor learning patterns are impacted by what is taught. Take child learning to walk at age one, who watches his father or mother walk day after day. Many who see the child in later years say the child has his father or mothers walk. where is that learned. it is learned from what the child takes in and imitates. If I only see people throwing a ball side arm, when it time for me to throw a ball I will imitate what I saw whether it was efficient or not. If I am learning to run and my example of running comes from watching the world's most technically correct sprinters, I will imitate those sprinters.
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> > > I don't feel the need to validate my postings on this site, I have been reading for a while. I have watched your attacks on other people when they don't agree with you. doesn't your attack prevent you from learning. perhaps you are all teachers and those of us who post here should only post questions for experts to answer. I would imagine from some of the posting, many of you have never set foot in a high tech biomechanics lab. And that is not to discredit you, only to encourage you to continue to educate yourselves. That is the only way your athletes will benefit from your knowledge. Those of you that think you know it all, let the rest of us learn from the questions that are generated from this site. No need to ridicule. Lets all learn. Because none of us knows all the answers. Not Mr. Mankin, Mr. Nyman, Adair, Epstein. In five years, many of the things we are all saying will change...This we know. If it doesn't, then we have not continued to learn.
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> > > "If you think you know it all, you really know a lot less than you thought."
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> > > Dr. David
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> > Dr. Dave-
> > in the swing, should the elbow of the top-hand arm lead the hand to the ball, or should the hand lead the elbow?
> > With your familiarity with biomechanics labs, I'm sure you have plenty of high speed video as well as elbow and hand speed measurements. Please tell us what your research shows.
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> Major
> When asking that question, who are you talking about? It depends on the hitter. Some people might lead with their back elbow, front elbow, or whatever. And some hitters don't.
> Just becuase Dr Chambers works in a biomechanics lab doesn't mean that he's reviewed al these swings and screen shots. I'm not a biomechanist, but I can tell you that if anyone did screen shots, or slo mo's, you'd find that most hitters use their back elbows and hands differently. Everyone has their own swing. The general technique may be the same, but the little things are different for each person.

This is not a little thing and you'll find it is very consistent with mlb hitters.