Posted by: bart () on Mon Jul 28 07:30:20 2003

I am aware that the better ones are supposed to initiate the swing with shoulder rotation, but it seems many use the pull the knob que such as Bonds and Delgado, people such as Mr. Lau Jr believe that initiating with the shoulders slows down the swing and that the hands are faster. What are your guys thoughts
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> > > > > No, the swing is initiated with the hips. As far as pulling the knob, well, it depends on what you mean by that. Many or most pull the knob instructors are chasing something close to this: http://www.quickhands.net/pics.html
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> > > > > And this would be the opposite of what Bonds etc does. When he "pulls the knob" late in the swing it is to decrease the radius of the swing not make the hand path more linear. http://www.usatoday.com/sports/gallery/bonds/flash.htm
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> > > > > Nyman has a very clear understanding of this and I believe Mankin refers to it as the arcing handpath.
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> > > > it's important to understand the chain of events in the swing...however, this understanding should NOT be used to overemphasize a particulat link....
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> > > > the chain: stride, hands back & bat cock, toe touch (with bat uncocking & hips starting to rotate), achieving torque position, swing (elbow in slot, lag position, etc).....
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> > > > danger: taking a statement like "the swing is initiated with the hips" to mean that it would be good to emphasize training of the hips to "initiate" the swing
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> > > YES.
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> > > ....while technically the hips start before the hands in ONE PART OF THE SWING,
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> > > That "one part" being the start of rotation. Hips rotate first followed by the torso/shoulders with the rest as described by Jack.
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> > > if you try to focus on this part of the swing only, disaster will occur
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> > > Who said anything about focusing on only one of anything?
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> > > .....in order for the "hips to intiate" properly, you have to look back to the preceeding links....proper bat cocking/uncocking will AUTOMATICALLY produce Jack's "moving knob towards catcher" thing,which will in turn produce the proper torque position....
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> > > Please elaborate. And if possible, give us a clip to demonstrate. The MLB players I study definitely rotate the hips before the shoulders AND while it happens often at the same time the bat and hands are doing interesting things, it is more active and powerful rather than reactive as you seem to think if I read you correctly.
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> > > > another example: Epstein tries to artifically train the torque position, whereas if he were to focus on the preceeding elements of the swing his students would achieve the desired result with much less effort....
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> > > I have used Epstein's drills on very young rec level ballplayers all the way up to college players with excellent success. Of course Mankin has affected my thinking on the swing as has Nyman to a great degree.
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> > > > one last comment....rotation = top hand pushing the knob....linear = bottom hand pulling the knob.....
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> > > Depends.
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> > sorry mark, i neglected one of your questions.......rotation = top hand pushing the knob....linear = bottom hand pulling the knob.....
> > you said "depends"........actually, it doesn't depend as this is a truism....
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> I would counter that Mister quick hands clip could perform the same motion, as could I, with only the bottom hand. In general, your cue is a good one, but I would say it is a cue rather than a truism.

i don't care for the site...my point was that this site too had testimonials...my point was that testimonials are unimpressive to me.........................."rotation = top hand pushing the knob....linear = bottom hand pulling the knob....."......it is not a cue, it does not depend, it IS a truism, as in truth, fact, indisputable...kind of like saying drinking water is liquid....