Posted by: () on Sun Jul 27 17:49:14 2003

I am aware that the better ones are supposed to initiate the swing with shoulder rotation, but it seems many use the pull the knob que such as Bonds and Delgado, people such as Mr. Lau Jr believe that initiating with the shoulders slows down the swing and that the hands are faster. What are your guys thoughts
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> > > > No, the swing is initiated with the hips. As far as pulling the knob, well, it depends on what you mean by that. Many or most pull the knob instructors are chasing something close to this: http://www.quickhands.net/pics.html
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> > > > And this would be the opposite of what Bonds etc does. When he "pulls the knob" late in the swing it is to decrease the radius of the swing not make the hand path more linear. http://www.usatoday.com/sports/gallery/bonds/flash.htm
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> > > > Nyman has a very clear understanding of this and I believe Mankin refers to it as the arcing handpath.
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> > > it's important to understand the chain of events in the swing...however, this understanding should NOT be used to overemphasize a particulat link....
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> > > the chain: stride, hands back & bat cock, toe touch (with bat uncocking & hips starting to rotate), achieving torque position, swing (elbow in slot, lag position, etc).....
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> > > danger: taking a statement like "the swing is initiated with the hips" to mean that it would be good to emphasize training of the hips to "initiate" the swing
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> > YES.
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> > ....while technically the hips start before the hands in ONE PART OF THE SWING,
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> > That "one part" being the start of rotation. Hips rotate first followed by the torso/shoulders with the rest as described by Jack.
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> > if you try to focus on this part of the swing only, disaster will occur
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> > Who said anything about focusing on only one of anything?
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> > .....in order for the "hips to intiate" properly, you have to look back to the preceeding links....proper bat cocking/uncocking will AUTOMATICALLY produce Jack's "moving knob towards catcher" thing,which will in turn produce the proper torque position....
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> > Please elaborate. And if possible, give us a clip to demonstrate. The MLB players I study definitely rotate the hips before the shoulders AND while it happens often at the same time the bat and hands are doing interesting things, it is more active and powerful rather than reactive as you seem to think if I read you correctly.
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> > > another example: Epstein tries to artifically train the torque position, whereas if he were to focus on the preceeding elements of the swing his students would achieve the desired result with much less effort....
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> > I have used Epstein's drills on very young rec level ballplayers all the way up to college players with excellent success. Of course Mankin has affected my thinking on the swing as has Nyman to a great degree.
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> > > one last comment....rotation = top hand pushing the knob....linear = bottom hand pulling the knob.....
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> > Depends.
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> responses to mark h......
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> ....while technically the hips start before the hands in ONE PART OF THE SWING,............ That "one part" being the start of rotation. Hips rotate first followed by the torso/shoulders with the rest as described by Jack......................WRONG!!!!!.....you miss the point......stride, hands back, bat cock/uncock all PRECEED as well as FACILITATES the hip rotation.......refer to previous posts on this topic.....

First thing that rotates open is the hips. I should send you a Bagwell clip I've got. Stride? What about no stride hitters? Hands back? Actually scap loading. Just getting the hands back doesn't tell the whole story. Bat cock and uncock is a good thing but does not IMO facilitate hip rotation. Loading the torso torque yes.


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> "Who said anything about focusing on only one of anything?"......many coaches do so...i didn't acccuse you of this......
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> "Please elaborate. And if possible, give us a clip to demonstrate. "............for elaboration see previous posts over the last year.....for clips, talk to jack......

Jack's not big on clips. Setpro is covered with them. Ever spend any time over there?

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> "The MLB players I study definitely rotate the hips before the shoulders ".........i have reached the same conclusion....
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> "AND while it happens often at the same time the bat and hands are doing interesting things"........hint: these "interesting things" are more important than i think you realize......

Maybe not, I've been reading Jack, Mike and Paul for a long time.


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> "it is more active and powerful rather than reactive as you seem to think "......hip rotation is reactive and is active and is indeed quite powerful.......
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> "I have used Epstein's drills on very young rec level ballplayers all the way up to college players with excellent success."......i respect your testmonial (please note that recently you directed us to the quick hands web site.....that site also has testimonials)........

Hilarious isn't it?

by the way, my intent was not to denigrate epstein.....i have his tapes & he has some good things to say...all i was doing was pointing out a deficiency in his theory & training......

I see his defiencies as covering what happens from shoulders to bathead. From the feet to the shoulders and what happens between the ears he is pretty strong. He would tell you, I think, that the areas where Jack is strong (interesting observations about what happens between the shoulders and the bathead) are areas best learned by the natural adaptations by the mental computer given a motor goal (sorry Paul had to borrow one of your phrases to explain Mike) once the hitter is "in the envelope" as Mike says.
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