Posted by: Bart () on Mon May 12 17:05:02 2003

Tom, I'm not sure how well my question will make sense, but here goes.
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> > > I know you agree with Jack that for an outside pitch you have a wider radius in the CHP. My question is this: at what point in the "circle" (actually, "semi-circle")is the hand position the same, whether the pitch is is or os? That is, at what point does the radius start widening for an os pitch?
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> > > For example, if you were to compare the lag positions of a hitter on an is pitch with one hitting an os pitch, at lag position the hitter with the os pitch will have a wider radius than the hitter with the is pitch.
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> > > On the other hand, at the start of the semi-circle (launch position?)the "radius" would obviously be the same.
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> > > This is what I'm trying to pinpoint in your model: EXACTLY WHAT POINT DO THE RADIUSES (RADII?) START DEVIATING, DEPENDING ON IF PITCH IS IS OR OS?
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> > > Naybe another way of phrasing the question is this....if we were to assume that roughly speaking, the start of the chp is 0 degrees, lag position is 90 degrees, contact 180 degrees, would the deviation of the chps (depending on is or os) start when the hands have traveled 15 degrees, 5, 20 or what?
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> > > I hope you can make sense of this....
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> > > Respectfully, Bart
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> > > My question pertains to space, not time. Once I get this clarification I may later wish to discuss this reference point in relation to the other swing components (toe touch, heel land, etc.....But for the time being I would like to stick to this specific point...
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> > Bart- Thanks for the question.
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> > I have what might be a very idiosyncratic overall theoretical model.You can see various posts about phases of the swing,etc.
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> > In particular I have tried to follow the ideas of Nyman and Epstein and Mankin with lots of video(?voodoo) analysis and my own somewhat limited experience.
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> > I have basically applied many of Nyman's principles of overhand throw to give a model of the hitting skill where I belive arm action(how big torso muscles move arms where you can control things by arm position awareness) is king.Nyman does not share this same emphasis(arm action)for his hitting theory.Epstein thinks this is making things overly complex.Maybe so.But it's just a theory that seems borne out by video analysis and personal feel.You don't want to confuse people when teaching with the details of your model,but you need a detailed model for analysis/diagnosis/planning how to teach.
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> > To answer your inside out radius setting question,I would first describe the swing as the loading/"backswing"/coiling twisting being lead by the upper body/back arm/top hand beginning early with the "inward turn",and continuing through scap load,and "box forming"(?THT).
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> > The swinging/initiation/launch is triggered by front heel drop,which gets hip turn to max rotational velocity as it hooks up and drives torso turn and a tightly connected handpath via lead arm/bottom hand pull.Epstein describes the feel as the hands continuing to load until the are yanked forward by the body uncoiling.Successful "launch" means the hands/torso must continue loading/separation until interrupted,the hips have to retain some degree of being cocked/loaded,and the weight has to be somewhat forward of where it will be when the axis is set,but not as far as onto the front foot.
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> > RQL has described the feel of preparing the longer swing radius for middle out as "loading back more" which may be a good descriptive cue.The idea is to load the same way for each swing as much as possible,with the longer radius being the result of a relative delay in "launch" before hands are yanked forward,during which time the lead arm straightens some and the front shoulder/scapula may slide across the torso(opposits of pinch/retract as it might for short radius).While this model minimizes the difference in adjustment for inside vs out/short vs long,it is still a big adjustment with lots of timing implications which I think re-enforces Epstein's recommendation to look inside or out unless the situation demands otherwise.
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> > There is a definite difference in the feel especially in the front shoulder which can be a good source of feel for learning/control.
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> > RQL describes some of this "deltoid" feel in the post at the bottom of the March list this year.I think of it more in terms of front scap load/retraction(short radius)vs squeezing upper front arm vs torso(long radius).
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> > Next there is the description of the arm action in terms of the "box",creating a stable configuration for good "transfer mechanics".This has to permit ongoing torso loading,assist in plane adjustment and in setting of swing radius.
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> > Think of the "box" as if you are holding the bat vertically at your right side(righty hitter).Hands at belly button level,elbows bent at 90 degrees,forearms parallel to ground.In the dynamic swing,this configuration is created by externally rotating the back arm into the "slot" as the lead arm internally rotates/"works up" slightly.This happens after the back scap loads(back scap loads as you "wind the rubber band"/"counter rotate" on top as the stride leg goes out,but before the hips rotate open and turn the foot open at toe touch).The back scap needs to then stay loaded as the back arm/front arm form the box and the bottom half rotates open by toe touch.All this is still the loading phase.
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> > The box forming action accelerates the bat back toward the catcher which reactively assists the torso loading as the hands stay back.(For example if you go from scap load to box formed while sitting on a well lubricated barstool,your torso/body will rotate back.This keeps the body twist going.It's important not to loase load/twist at this point.
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> > That is the basic box forming sequence/action of the arms working together.In addition the lead arm can lift(abduct) the whole box off the torso somewhat more for high ball(as part of a series of plane adjustments,the most important being posture /bend at waist),and the back arm can load the whole box back more as loading continues to creat a longer swing radius with the whole orientation of the box rotated somewhat behind the body(not directly back toward the catcher).This creates the higher load situation for the outside location.
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> > Most of this adjustment in configuration happens between toe touch and front heel down.This is the phase Epstein describes as "drop and tilt".You can start "launching" slightly before toe touch when you really have to turn,and you can still launch somewhat effectively until the weight gets too much onto the front foot.
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> > Jack describes this in out adjustment more in terms of direction of application of tht.RQL describes it also in terms of how far the back elbow "slot" is from the side.
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> > Theoretically axis of rotation is set/weight shift is blocked and swing plane and radius are "set" at "launch",but there is some ongoing shifting of things on the "approach" to contact even on the welltimed hit.However,I suspect these shifts are the result of automatic execution of learned motor programs that are triggered before launch.
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> Bart,Tom If I had to describe a difference and a time frame difference for i.s o.s this would be it.If I'm going to look for both in and out pitch[not always]Then I look for o.s. pitch 1st and I begin to load as usual,if I see it away I delay launch and use that time to create a higher load[Tom Guerry phrase] which gets my timing right but allows me to also have a little more chp and rotation on the back side since I am at contact early on the front side.As the elbow comes into the slot you are already programmed for o.s. pitch so their is a elbow slot that allows the larger radius which is not as tight to ribcage.The lead elbow and arm is straighter across the chest.Now inside pitch coming in I load as normal but as I see i.s. location I must speed up my process, no delay, and initiate toe touch and hip turn but also tighten the elbow slot to ribs and [draw in hands into smaller radius]to get barrel on inside pitch.Mentally you look away and react in.

RQL...where is your front toe at the point where you recognize if the pitch is is or os? I assume the front toe has not yet landed.

And what specific technique do you use to "delay launch" for the os pitch? Are you somehow momentairily delaying toe touch, or do you have toe touch the same time for is & os pitch, but delaying launch by delaying front heel plant?

"as I see i.s. location I must speed up my process, no delay, and initiate toe touch and hip turn but also tighten the elbow slot to ribs and [draw in hands into smaller radius]to get barrel on inside pitch"....it would seem to me that the determination as to whether the pitch is is or os would be made long before the elbow has went in the slot?

I would appreciate the clarification...Thanks, Bart