Posted by: Bart () on Mon May 5 08:03:33 2003

I think someone previously made a distinction between the two (maybe Teacherman?). I think the distinction was in connection with full x-t vs. less-than-full x-t.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I hope whoever it was might rearticulate their view, as I have reason to believe it might be a topic worth discussing. I say this knowing or thinking that at the time I myself was scoffing at the notion. But I would like to hear the idea once more.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bart
> > > > >
> > > > > You and I were doing battle last fall about this topic. I maintained maximum batspeed was at extension as Paul Nyman states. If you remember, you started the post with a quote from the SETPRO website that you disagreed with.
> > > > >
> > > > > Paul was saying that there is a tradeoff of batspeed for bat quickness by leaving the elbow in the slot, therefore not reaching extension on the swing. He also stated that there are a few major leaguers who do hit at extension with Griffey as an example. I later suggested McGwire did also.
> > > > >
> > > > > The whole point was that being quicker to the ball, even if it doesn't generate maximum batspeed. is desireable because it allows a little more time for decisions. And, that maximum batspeed isn't necessary for most big leaguers to hit the ball out of the park. Better decisions and better sweet spot contact resulted from this.
> > > > >
> > > > > I went on the explain that I had tested this theory with my 16 yr olds at fall practice and that everyone of them registered higher batspeeds at extension than at the "L". It was about this time that I posted a clip of Arod (the same on Ray Porco and I have been discussing) and the topic died a silent death.
> > > >
> > > > This is the discussion I now recollect.I do remember challenging Paul's statement, although (and correct me if I'm wrong)it was YOUR interpretation of Paul's statement that "there is a tradeoff of batspeed for bat quickness by leaving the elbow in the slot, therefore not reaching extension on the swing." I don't think that's what paul said or meant, but that's ok, it's what you think and we are the ones having the discussion, not Paul.
> > > >
> > > > What I would like to explore is how do you arrive at the conclusion that there is more batspeed at full XT ? As far as I know, there has never been any scientific studies using film, instruments, etc to make such a measurment.
> > > >
> > > > On the other hand, for Jack and those who maintain that maximum batspeed is achieved when the top arm is in the "L" position, what, if any scientific studies are THEY referring to? Nevermind the rhetoric that can convince someone that this is fact....has there been or has there not been actual scientific studies done that can prove their case?
> > > >
> > > > The closest to studies I have seen pertaining to batspeed are studies that indicate that in general, balls hit to the pull field are generally hit harder than balls hit to the opposite field. To be exact, the general range of difference in the distance is about 15 percent. But these studies pertain to distance, and of course I don't think batspeed is the sole determinent in measuring distance the ball is hit.
> > > >
> > > > In the absence of scientific studies, I have concluded that hitting an inside pitch with the top arm in the "L" position is PROBABLY the most efficient, but my conclusion is not based on science. It is based on observation. That is, if 90 per cent of the major leaguers hit that way, it's probably the right way. however, I wouldn't go so far as to say that the 10 percent who hit with full XT are "elite".
> > > >
> > > > And what exactly is bat "quickness"? How is it measured? There are some coaches who think that having a traditional fence drill swing (traditional, not the Bart fence drill swing)will yield "quickness". But i have a feeling their idea of "quickness" is much different from yours.
> > > >
> > > > Respectfully, Bart
> > >
> > > Bat quickness to me is the time from decision to contact. I've never heard of any measurement in terms of what is the fastest or norm but the SETPRO Reaction Trainer has the ability to judge this in an individuals swing.
> > >
> > > A light flashes (decision time) and then the time it took your bat to cross the sensor is determined. This is a very useful device to train you to be quick. You can set the computer for whatever speed pitch you like. If you face 90+ mph often, set it at that speed and work on the quickness it takes to get the barrel to the ball on time.
> > >
> > > And, I'm pretty sure that was Paul's statement about the trade off of batspeed for quickness.
> > >
> > > As far as batspeed at the "L" v "at extension", just take your batspeed reader and swing both ways. Keep your elbow slotted, take a reading; then go to extension and take a reading. It's really an easy read both in feel and on the meter.
> > >
> > > As for your comments about balls hit harder to the pull side than the opposite field, I'm not sure how that relates to extension or no extension. Seems to me that many balls hit to the opposite field may be hit at extension (reaching to the ball) and many ball hit to the pull side may be hit with the elbow slotted (in an effort to not come "around" the ball and pull it foul).
> >
> >
> > "Bat quickness to me is the time from decision to contact." Are you saying that from decision to contact that there is enough time to achieve the "L" position but not enough time to achieve full XT? Are you saying that in the extra 1/2 frame it takes to achieve full XT that this aproximately .016 of a second is too much additional time taken away from the hitter? Also, are you saying, that in theory, if a hitter could afford this additional time that between the "L" position and full XT there would be additional acceleration of the bat?
> >
> > Does the Reaction Trainer measure batspeed itself? That is, are you able to quantify the results in terms of full XT = ________ amount of batspeed, and less than full XT ("L" position) = _________ amount of batspeed?
> >
> > I wonder if the Reaction Trainer is a measurement of batspeed itself and not just reaction....I can visualize myself forcing myself to be "quick" so as to attain a particular goal (e.g., the device being set at 95 mph), and I can visualize myself achieving this goal by "throwing" my hands straight at the "ball" (i.e., using poor mechanics)....thus, I can visualize myself succeeding in being "quick" but having less batspeed.....I hope this makes sense.
> >
> > "As for your comments about balls hit harder to the pull side than the opposite field, I'm not sure how that relates to extension or no extension." It might relate to full XT but maybe not. I have observed that major leaguers GENERALLY achieve full XT on outside pitches and low pitches, but for the time being perhaps we could disregard that comment.
>
> Bart
>
> Answers to your questions......
>
> 1) Yes, I think the "L" is reached before extension. I'm not well versed on the time savings but if you say it's .016 I'd rather have it than not. In fact, that sounds like a lot of time to me. However, it is my belief that the bat heads toward the "L" long before decision. Decision time to me is that millisecond before you reach the point of no return. The elbow may very well be slotted already.
>
> 2) The reaction trainer measures many things. Batspeed, how far the ball would project to have gone if hit squarley, and it tells you if you were late or early based on the settings you programmed.
>
> 3) I doubt if it's a perfect experiment, but if you have a Swing mate or some other batspeed measuring device try swinging with your elbow in the "L" and then try swinging to reach full extension. You'll get two different readings. The "L" swing will be slower than the extension swing. But, you should be able to feel the quickness difference.
>
> 4) The reaction trainer is just what I said it is. It measures whatever you ask it to. On one particular setting it will tell you your batspeed, your distance and your reaction time. If you want to test a poor mechanics swing (throwing hands at ball) be my guest. We concentrate on taking our good swing at a Swing-a-way. We try to be sound fundamentally and react with our best swing.
>
> 5) You won't be your quickest by throwing your hands to the ball. Believe me, if you set it to throw 90 you'll have to be ready and throwing the hands at the ball will not get you there. The muscles of your legs and torso will though. But only if you maintain connection.
>
> 6) Of course you'll lose batspeed when you're your quickest. That's the trade off we've been talking about. There is no way you can be as quick at extension as you are at the "L".
>
> Now, explain where you're headed. You act like you're trap happy.

No, I'm not "trap happy". I'm too busy to play games. I'm not headed in any particular direction, just like to hear all points of view.