Posted by: Doug () on Wed Apr 30 19:51:40 2003

To anyone interested,
> > > >
> > > > Teacherman was kind enough to e-mail me the clip of recent discussion (the Arod clip in the “Dead” thread).
> > > >
> > > > For those (and I believe that would be most, if not all) who have not seen the clip, I will try to describe what I believe I see, but I do have to specifically reference the clip. It is for that reason that I believe the ability to post clips to the discussion forum would enhance discussion to no end.
> > > >
> > > > For general reference, a lefthander is throwing a curve ball to right hand batting Arod , therefore the ball is breaking in to him. It is at the knees and off the outside edge of the plate at contact (if I were the ump and he didn’t swing I would’ve called a ball - the view is from left center looking in to the catcher).
> > > >
> > > > There are 5 frames that interest me and I believe are relevant to the current discussion.
> > > >
> > > > 1) Toe lift frame (beginning of stride)
> > > > 2) Toe touch frame (end of stride, but before heel drop)
> > > > 3) Contact frame (actually the ball is just slightly off the bat)
> > > > 4) One frame prior to contact
> > > > 5) The frame that is two frames prior to contact
> > > >
> > > > 1) Toe lift frame.
> > > > The back elbow starts to rise on cue with toe lift off.
> > > > The barrel of the bat begins a movement that is both more vertical and toward the pitcher coinciding with elbow rise.
> > > >
> > > > 2) Toe touch frame.
> > > > Actually what I’m talking about is the movement that occurs in between the two frames.
> > > > The back elbow’s rise REACHES IT’S HIGHES POINT at toe touch.
> > > > The barrel of the bat which has moved VERTICALLY AND TOWARD THE PITCHER, stops this directional path and begins it’s reversal at toe touch. The reversal is strongest and most evident at heel drop.
> > > >
> > > > Here is where I would recommend everyone to get a bat in your hands, and if your as fortunate as me to have a full length mirror by the computer, configure yourself to duplicate Arod. If you simulate the back elbow rise, you will see your bat cock.
> > > >
> > > > 5) Two frames prior to contact.
> > > > Again I’m gonna actually talk about the movement from toe touch to this particular frame.
> > > > From the cocked position Arod drives the top hand elbow down hard. You can’t see the hands but I do believe that the motion of the bat (if you duplicate it correctly in the mirror) will reveal to you what the hands are doing. For me, they’re torqueing. Arod’s hips barely (if they do at all) open and his flexed front leg never straightens. His rear knee doesn’t turn down and in. In fact, the right foot actually takes a step back. There is torso turn, and shoulder turn but they are both cut-off by his upper body bending and reaching to hit the outside pitch.
> > > > The bat movement from toe touch to two frames before contact, I would have to say is attributed to what Jack has termed top-hand torque. Proud of me, Jack???
> > > >
> > > > Now Teacherman, don’t get bent outta. Yours is coming.
> > > >
> > > > From two frames prior to contact to one frame prior to contact, I see several things.
> > > > The bat moves the greatest distance, the fastest, in ONE frame
> > > > The top hand elbow pushes out away from the body.
> > > > The wrists flex.
> > > > The TOP hand drives around the BOTTOM hand. The top hand (IN ONE FRAME) goes from being radially flexed (abducted) to ulnar flexion (adduction).
> > > > The bottom hand shoulder is NOT pulling back, hence not pulling the bottom hand around the top hand. The bottom hand wrist is flexing, however, allowing the two hands to torque the bat.
> > > >
> > > > One frame prior to contact to contact frame.
> > > > If you put yourself in the EXACT position of Arod in one frame prior to contact, you will see an opening through the two arms (you can see the umpire’s elbow through the gap).
> > > > In the contact frame (next frame) the gap is closed. The top hand elbow is straightening (going up - closing the gap) and the bottom hand elbow is turning down. Simulate this action in the mirror. As you simulate, observe the wrists. They are flexing (adducting).
> > > > They are also starting to roll. In fact his top hand may even be off the bat at contact (hard to see). That’s what he has to do to compensate for going after a bad pitch.
> > > >
> > > > Conclusion:
> > > >
> > > > I don’t like the term “whip”, even though that’s what it looks like. I don’t like the term “dog hitting the end of the leash“. I like the term “top hand torque”. I like the term “flail”. I’d like to go to bed.
> > > > Top hand torque generates the early batspeed and the wrist’s flexing and torquing (whip if you must) perpetuates and adds to batspeed.
> > > > I have more (and supportive stuff), but later.
> > > >
> > > > ray porco
> > >
> > > I don't disagree at all with the frame by frame analysis. I do question your choice of words when you use top hand torque and wrist torque. If you look at each frame individually, you'll see the hitter in positions that could lead to a conclusion that his wrist has adducted from this frame to that. But, in the fluid swing, is the wrist adducting to supply the force or is it getting to that position because of some other force? And that is my contention. Arod's clear linear hand path on this swing came to a sudden stop and the bat whipped around. It was the whip effect that made his wrists look like they were torquing the bat. Not that there may not be some wrist torque in a whipped bat but the majority of the force comes from the hands thrown (extension of the elbows) and then suddenly stopped.
> > >
> > > And, although I agree there is some preswing movement that you called top hand torque that did get the bat in motion, this movement has nothing to do with "pulling on the bat handle like a bow and arrow" with the thumb and forefinger. It simply comes from him slotting the elbow. Anyone who starts with a high back elbow and then slots it will have this movement. And, yes, you'll feel some pressure on teh thumb and forefinger, but it's the lowering of the elbow that is generating the movement. In this particular swing the slotting of the elbow is attempted but never reached. Because, in the process, he realizes he's fooled and then totally disconnects and throws the hands. This throwing and whipping of the barrel will produce more speed than simple wrist torque.
> >
> > So, strong hands have an impact on power.
> >
> > Doug
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> You've still never said what strong hands mean. What muscles are you talking about? What kind of hand movement are you talking about? How do you workout/exercise to get "strong hands"? I would assume strong hands (whatever their meaning is) have an impact on power, because most muscles in the body have an impact on power in the swing.

X, You can get strong hands by squeezing hand grippers, rubber balls, and by using a 10 gal bucket of rice and working your hand and arm into it opening and closing your hand as you go. It will also strengthen your wrists and forearms. The last foot and a half the bat travels before impact is when your hands come into play. That is why Teacherman could not figure out how A-Rod could drive a pitch 390 ft without making a good rotational swing. He has strong hands. That is why all the power hitters in the big leagues work on and have strong hands.

Doug