Posted by: J () on Fri Apr 25 15:35:03 2003

We all are looking for the right swing mechanics, and most of us here agree that rotational is the way to go. What many don't or won't understand is that successful hitters have a feel for hitting. They have timing and a feel for when to start the swing. They have a feel and idea of what to look for when at bat. They have a feel and understanding of what they can and can't do. They have a feel and understanding of what the pitcher is trying to do. A hitter can have great mechanics, but if he has little feel for hitting, he will struggle. If he has a good feel for hitting he will have success.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mr. Obvious just posted. That is why most MLB hitters can't describe what they do. They would be horrible coaches because it comes natural to them. The question is, how do "normal" hitters get that natural feeling? My guess is practice and repetition.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mr. Noname, When you say most MLB hitters can't describe what they do, is that from personal experience? Have you taken a poll of the MLB hitters and asked them questions on hitting? The only people that I hear saying that are guys that did not play. I wonder why all the hitting coaches in the major and minor leagues are ex players instead of guys that never played? They must all be poor coaches if what you said is true. What is taught that can only be taught by someone who has been there is the mental side of hitting. 4000-5000 AB's will teach a man a lot about hitting that he can pass on to the young players. 0 AB's will pass on 0 experience and a lot of guessing.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > That knowledge is called common sense. If MLB players were very good teachers and knew what they were doing, how come we don't see them starting there own hitting schools? I realize that not all of them would desire to start their own hitting schools, but would NONE of them? I don't know of ANY MLB player that sells, or even gives away, hitting lessons. And I mean actual lessons, not just pieces of advice.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > And that is exactly what hitting coaches do. I, for one do not really believe in hitting coaches. As you pointed out, they are just former MLB players. They don't really know the details of hitting like some "non-players" do (say a guy named Jack Mankin, or even Charlie Lau if you believe his mechanics). Their purpose is to try to give pieces of advice to players that are slumping. They don't have an active role in controling a players swing, and basically, the position "Hitting Coach" is a way for former players to hold on to the game. Most can only give the slumping players, cues that worked for them. If someone actually knew what was going on and could really teach hitting, he would be very well known, and wanted by many teams. In fact, he would probably be promoted to a higher status than hitting coach. When is the last time you heard of a Hitting Coach switching teams? When managers change teams it's a big deal. Why? Because they can affect the teams success. Hitting coaches can't really affect the teams success and therefore no one really cares about them.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Once again you make reference to what MLB hitters know and what they don't know. Have you ever sat down and talked with a few ex-major league hitters about the swing and the mental aspect of hitting? As far as ex players having their own schools, how about Mike Epstein and Ed Sprague Jr. They are ex major leaguers and now teach. How about Terry Whitfield, Brad Wellman and Joe Rudi in N. California.Do some reserch and you will find out that many ex big leaguers are now teaching hitting.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Doug
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I have listened to Tony Gwynn, possible the best hitter of the 90s, incorrectly describe taking the knob to the ball. That is good enough for me. If the best hitter can't describe it, how can a lesser hitter describe it. I have never once heard a Major Leaguer give any advice besides a simple cue that has been used for years.
> > > > > > > > > > > And, as I said before, if they really were knowledgeable of the swing and able to teach it, they would start their own hitting schools. So you named 5 out of how many Major Leaguers that work wiht hitting. And no offense to Mike Epstien, but I wouldn't really consider him a Major Leaguer. It is a great accomplishment that he did make it, but in all honesty, he wasn't a real good player. In fact, he only figured out the swing AFTER his playing career, when he actually took time to figure things out. That tells me that he really didn't know what he was doing when he was playing.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > You keep giving specific examples. I'm talking about in general and especially for the upper level Major Leaguers. I made an incorrect generalization when I said NO Major Leaguers teach hitting. But I stand by my point that the majority of them are just gifted athletically and don't really know what they are doing.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > And by the way, you suggest that you HAVE sat down and talked to Major Leaguers about their swings. If neither of us have, then you have your beliefs and I have mine. Or course, I believe mine is right and that I can back it up.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > And again I ask if we "normal" people can get the "natural" feeling Major Leaguers have? And if so, how do we do it?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > You can't. It is called talent and only a few have it. Also, to answer your question about ex major leaguers and their ability to teach. There are a lot more ex players that know how to teach than non players. You say that Mike Epstein's 9 years in the big leagues don't make him a big leaguer. What would you give to have played 9 years in the major leagues? How many non players can you name who know the swing and can teach it? How do you know that they know the swing if you have not played? Mike Epstein had 2,854 AB's in the big leagues. That my friend is called experience.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Doug
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Well, Tell the Kansas Jayhawks that experience matters. Cause Syracuse just proved (at least in college basketball) that talent is more important. And my point is that being a Major Leaguer does not automatically equal swing knowledge and/or teaching ability.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If you would have read my post completely, you would have seen that I said, "It is a great accomplishment that he did make it, but in all honesty, he wasn't a real good player." I would have given a lot to play nine years in the Majors, but that doesn't mean I can do a darn thing except hit, catch, and throw a baseball. And as HE HIMSELF says, he did not know the swing until AFTER his playing career. All of those ABs of experience sure did a lot of good, huh.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And just to clear things up here, what do you mean by ex-players? Are you just talking about ex-MLB players? Or do you mean any level of baseball. I can name two of what you would probably call "non-players" who know the swing better than ANY Major League player. And those two are Paul Nyman (from SetPro) and Jack Mankin. So what does that say about your precious "experience". They were never MLB players, yet they know and can teach the swing better than ANYONE I've seen.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Experience is only good in your field of work. And as Syracuse proved, it isn't the most important thing. Major League experience will help a person hit Major League pitching. I does not mean they can teach someone else HOW to hit. Think about what you're saying here. If what you're saying is true, then why do we need teachers to get teaching degrees? Why don't they just get a Master's in their field and be automatically able to teach others.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You keep asking me how I if I have ever sat down with a Major Leaguer and talked with them about hitting. I have not, but I have heard them speak about hitting in interviews. Have you sat down and talked with them? And if you did, what did they tell you? I can almost guaruntee that they told you what worked for them. Why? Because they are only concerned about what works for them. If a cue works for them, then they use it. Most do not break down the swing and actually try to figure it out. It's common sense that these things are true. And without a poll of MLB players you can't really prove your point. I can't prove mine directly without a poll either, but I have common sense on my side. Experience is over rated. Ask Kansas, Syracues, Camelo Anthony, Nick Collison, and last years World Series Champs the Anahiem Angels.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Noname, You have named two people that were not players who have a good understanding of the swing in my opinion. Is that it? The Angels have a ton of experience. They did not field a team of rookies last year and their coaching staff was filled with veteran major leaguers. Experience is overated? by whom? you? How many rookies have taken their team to the world series? You downgrade ex major leaguers as hitting coaches without saying why. I have spent time with and listened to Mike Epstein, Bobby Bonds, Jim Lefebvre, Joe Lefebvre, Hank Sauer, Charlie Lau Sr. Robin Yount, George Brett and many others. I have learned from all of them and the most important thing I learned was how to think at the plate.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You can have the best rotational mechanics in the world, but if you don't know how to think at the plate you are toast. If you think that experience does not count then you have not been paying attention. Do you think Barry Bonds was a better hitter when he was a rookie? Do you think Greg Maddux was a better pitcher when he was a rookie? Do you think Dusty Baker was a better Mgr. his first year? I can learn things from Mr. Mankin and Mr. Nyman, but can you be open minded enough to learn things from Mike Epstein even though he played 9 years in the big leagues, or is he not a good teacher because he is an ex major league player. My son has read only one book on hitting in his life (Ted Williams) another ex big leaguer, and he is one of the top ten college freshman hitters in the nation. Your college basketball players that you talk about are all kids, not experienced pros. Instead of bad mouthing ex major leaguers who teach, maybe you should sit down and talk with some of them and learn something that can help you to be a better teacher/hitter.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Doug
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Doug you are taking this WAY out of proportion. I never said that ALL ex-MLB players were bad coaches/teachers. I said MOST of them are, because they don't study the swing in depth. All of those people you mentioned HAVE studied the swing. That makes them better off than MOST MLB players.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I agree that you can have the best mechanics and still struggle without a good approach. But the opposite is true as well. You can have a good approach with poor mechanics and still be toast. Experience DOES count, I never said it didn't.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But talent can overcome experience. The Angels had hardly any playoff experience. And the media made a huge deal about that, but they still one. As far as rookies leading their teams to championships, I already mentioned Carmelo Anthony (and there were two more freshman on the team that made large contributions) who led his team to the NCAA championship. I realize that is basketball, but I believe it can carry over to othere sports as well. I agree that the NCAA players are kids. But Nick Collison and Kirk Hienrich were "experience veterans" in college basketball, and they were believed to have the advantage. But better talent overcame experience.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I suspect you son is one of the people who have that natural feeling. That doesn't mean he hasn't worked on his swing, or that he can work on it to make it better. You said that you learned to think from MLB players. I thought you told me that a "normal" person couldn't get the "natural" feeling at the plate? If you learned to think from MLB players, then everyone should be able to improve somewhat. If MLB players can describe their natural feeling, then all those AB's of experience aren't needed. All a person has to do is learn the correct approach.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Noname, Learning to think properly at the plate and having a natural feeling are two different things. You can't teach natural, but you can learn how to think properly. The experienced guy can help you with the mental process at the plate. The inexperienced guy will just have an educated guess.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Doug
> > > > >
> > > > > I tend to disagree. I believe there ARE two different types of "natural". There are people who pick up a bat and just swing it near perfectly just from natural ability. And then there are the people who naturally can go to the plate and hit pitching. The two types are very related, but still different. Other than being educated (scouting) about the opposing pitcher, I don't believe someone can teach you how to approach the plate. I'm curious to know what these MLB players said that changed your view. And who knows, maybe you'll change my opinion about MLB players teaching abilities.
> > > > >
> > > > > (this is No Name, but ray suggested a better name)
> > > >
> > > > X, Good luck to you as a hitter/teacher. I am curious as to to your experience as a hitter/teacher. Did you learn from experience? From a book? from Mr. Mankin or Mr. Nyman? Your stance against MLB players makes me think that you are a teacher who was passed over as a youngster and now have a chip about MLB and its coaches. How long have you played/taught? Who have you taught? Where have you played?
> > > >
> > > > Doug
> > >
> > >
> > > I have been playing baseball my whole life, and I am still playing college baseball. I did not learn about rotational hitting until I was in high school, but I still most likely wouldn't have made the Major Leagues. I'm just not big/strong/athletic/talented enough. Plain and simple. And I don't have any regrets about not being good enough for the Majors. I just wasn't born with the right genes or the real "natural" ability to hit. I just want to be as good as I can be. And I am still learnign some new thigns. I learned from Paul Nyman, more through trial and error from his SetPro website, than his personal help.
> > >
> > > I don't have a chip against any MLB players. Maybe I'm playing a little too much of devil's advocate, but I don't believe they are as great as you make them out to be. They are VERY great athletes, and they play baseball better than anyone in the world. But that doesn't mean they know everything about baseball, or that they automatically know more than anyone else could ever know.
> > >
> > > If I am an astronaut, that doesn't mean I can tell you how all the machinery on the space shuttle works. I can drive the space shuttle, but I can't necessarily describe to you how it works. If I am a MLB player, I can swing the bat, but I can't necessarily fix your swing, or tell you how the body works so you can swing properly.
> >
> > Nyman's site was good, as well as this one. But to argue that Nyman knows more about a swing than a major leaguer is an absurdity, and an embarassing one at that!
> > At this site I have seen people be critical of Walt Hendrick, Charley Sr, Charley Lau Jr, Dave Hudgens, Rob Ellis, Mike Schmidt, Dusty Baker, Mark Mcgwire,Tim McCarver, just to name a few.And you are going to tell me you can learn more from Nyman!
> > Forget about guys who played the game, take advice from a former high jumper who never played the game!!?? Perhaps for the advanced students of the game they could buy the AAA video game and learn advanced techniques by practicing with their joystick!!!!
>
>
> Yeah J. And so instead you're going to be taught by someone who has hit the ball sucessfully, but who has never studied the swing. You can't tell me you have never seen someone who has the natural ability to do something, but can not explain how to do it.
>
> J, let me ask you this. What swings the bat? The body (as a whole) right? So who would you trust to learn the swing from? Someone who can swing the bat right. Or someone who has studied the how the body works and can describe to you EXACTLY how to use your body to swing correctly.
>
> I don't see why you have to have played baseball as a kid to have any credentials. Jack and Paul are "playing" baseball now. They are studying the game now and have been for awhile. Just because they had no interest in it as a kid, does not mean they know nothing about the game NOW.
>
> Have you ever thought the opposite. That maybe people who haven't played the game or been involved with it for several years now are "out of touch". I don't necessarily believe that, and I highly doubt you would. But why does it not work the other way like in Jack and Paul's lives?
>
> No one (that I know of) has been critical of those people's abilities to play. But playing and coaching/teaching/understading are different things. If you don't accept that you are embarassing yourself. And just so you know, virtual reality simulators are being widely used in many fields. A joystick might not do you good, but simulating reality is.

"So who would you trust to learn the swing from? Someone who can swing the bat right. Or someone who has studied the how the body works and can describe to you EXACTLY how to use your body to swing correctly." That's like asking who you would prefer to do your brain surgery, a brain surgeon or someone who picked up some surgical techniques from the internet. That's what I call a "no-brainer"!

Now, can you tell me who "has studied the how the body works and can describe to you EXACTLY how to use your body to swing correctly."? Both Prof. Adair and Prof. Bahill made an attempt to explain "EXACTLY how to use your body to swing correctly", but mostly they focused on the physics of bat/ball collision, not on the biomechanics of the swing. There may be a lot of people who THINK they know "EXACTLY how to use your body to swing correctly", but they are amateurs, not scientists. The fact of the matter is, there is NO scientific body of literature that studies this area. The closest I have seen is Dr. Ruth Conard's work 25 years ago, and it is woefully inadequate.

So, until the biomechanists out there get on the ball and do some serious studies, this is what we are left with: (1) learn from those who have played the game, not withstanding their deficiencies in the field of biomechanics (2) learn from those who have NOT played the game, not withstanding their deficiencies in the field of biomechanics .