Posted by: No Name () on Tue Apr 22 21:19:26 2003

>>> Again, a great discussion. I think we have disagreed about this before. But I still contend that there is very good bat speed at extension. In fact, I think maximum batspeed is at extension as Paul Nyman states. The problem comes from the fact that it is very difficult to get extension against top pitching. Griffey, McGwire, ARod often do, to name a few. It creates a long swing that isn't useful (it's fast but takes to long to get the barrel to the ball). Therefore, some batspeed is sacrificed for bat quickness by most all mlb players.
>
>
> > > > >
> > > > > But, at extension, when the hands stop and the barrel whips around, the batspeed is significant. I have a clip of Arod, completely broken down, clearly disconnected and extending, reaching for an outside pitch and he hits the ball 390 feet. Where did that batspeed come from? It had to come from the whip effect. <<<
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Teacherman.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is no (noda, none) bat speed gain at full extension from the “whip effect” you described. I thought you had “The Final Arc ll.” In the video/dvd we show 2 test that prove the whip effect is nonexistent with a ridged object like a bat. Go to “Bat Speed Research” and read ‘Test the “Crack of the Whip” Theory’. Believe me Teacherman, the theory is a fallacy when applied the baseball swing.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jack Mankin
> > > >
> > > > Jack
> > > >
> > > > Are you referring to the test where you tied a rope to a bat handle and threw it straight forward? Or, your steering wheel knob on the bat? With all due respect neither of them illustrate a baseball swing, linear or rotational. If my wrist would swivel like your steering wheel knob then I'd give it some consideration. But they don't.
> > > >
> > > > And, if it's not the whip effect, in Arods swing, that allows him to hit the ball 390 feet after disconnection what is it? I don't have the ability to post the clip but you've seen the swing hundreds of times in baseball. The hitter is completely fooled by a change up or curve ball on the outside of the plate, low and away. The hitter has committed to a different location so he "throws" his hands to the ball and reaches full extension at contact. He has completely disconnected, the body went left and the hands went right, and still hits the ball 390 feet. There is no top hand torque in that swing, there is no bottom hand torque in that swing, there is no circular hand path in that swing, and there is no body rotation to power that swing. What created the power???
> > >
> > > HAND STRENGTH........Doug
> > > > >
> >
> >
> > Doug, are you agreeing with Teacherman? And what do you mean by hand strength? I assume you are not talking about grip strength as that does effect the swing. And I also assume that you talking about the strength of the player's forearm strength. Which to me correlates to wrist strenght, because the forearm controls wrist movement. And how does this forearm strength come into play? IMO, it has to come from the "whip" that Teacherman is talking about, where the hands are stopped are the wrists snap the bat around.
> >
> > As an aside, people have to start clearing up what they mean when they say "hands". The hands can do very little movement. The have very little power on their own. All they can basically do is grip and rotate around. I believe cues like "take your hands to the ball" came around because of hand-eye-coordination. But what really happens in that cue? The ARMS extend to the ball. Over the years people have tried to simplify the swing, so talk about the "hands" came into play. But when talking about the swing in detail (like on this board) you have to be more clear about what you are actually talking about.
>
> Noname, Hand strength comes from strengthening your hands. If you strengthen your hands, your wrists and forearms will get stronger too. We were talking about A-Rod reaching for a pitch and hitting it hard and far. He can do that because he has strength, and a lot of it is his hand strength. If a guy makes a great swing and gets his pitch in his happy zone, hitting the ball hard is a lot easier. If a guy is fooled, he will only hit the ball hard if he is strong, and the hands are what is holding the bat and if they are strong you have a chance. If they are weak, you are toast. Weak hands are the reason that so many young players use light wood bats when they sign. The light wood bats have soft wood and small sweet spots and the heavier bats are harder and have larger sweet spots. If you have strong hands you can swing a heavier bat. If you want to talk about arms, go right ahead, but I am talking about hand strength which all great power hitters have. Mike Piazza has mediocre mechanics, but he has the strongest hands in baseball and if you watch him enough, you will see it. As far as being clear on this board, we have people talking about THT and BHT and a few other things that I would never bring up to a young player, because talent, coordination and strength will decide what happens in that department.
>
> Doug


Doug, The arms comment was not made to you. It was just an example of how talk of the "hands" can be misleading. I believe that terms like BHT and THT are pretty clear. Not everyone understands them, but most people have their own idea (right or wrong) about what they are. Maybe "clear" wasn't the best choice of words. I should have said vague. The hands cannot move independently of the arms to hit the ball. BHT and THT are specific terms, "hands" and "hand movement" can be very vague.

But I still do not understand what you mean when you say "hand strength". How do you "strengthen you hands"? Again the hands have only two movements: grip and rotate. What exercises do you do and what muscles are you working when you say "strengthen the hands"? I believe you are actually talking about forearm strength, but you haven't clearly state what you mean.

As far as "and the hands are what is holding the bat and if they are strong you have a chance", I think you are wrong. Yes, the hands hold on to the bat. But I don't think their strength is what determines how you hit the ball (but I still don't fully understand what you mean). The hands (and arms for that matter) are just a connection between the bat and the body. They don't actively propel the bat, unless you are fooled.

Here's what happens when you are fooled. You start out with good rotational mechanics, but realize that the ball is not coming where you are swinging. So you adjust you arms to meet the ball. When you arms stop, the energy that you originally gave the bat with the rotational mechanics, continues to propell the bat in the "whip".

Yes, that means that when you are fooled, the hands and arms play a much larger part in how you hit the ball. But without a clear definition of what "hand strength" is, I believe most of the energy still comes from the body rotation.