Posted by: Jack Mankin (MrBatspeed@aol.com) on Thu Nov 1 13:12:49 2007

> Hi Teacherman
>
> You have presented your observations and conclusions and I have presented mine. The readers can judge for themselves the credibility of each.
>
> Jack Mankin

Jack,

I have a question for you and everyone else involved in this discussion. I'm not a physics major and I don't know all the degrees of separation, so my question will be in dumbed down terms, then what your conversation has been in. Why can't we have both, shoulder tilt and rotation? It appears to me that the shoulders do tilt and that they rotate. The hips start to open while the shoulders resist, causing a stretch and then they fire, tilting and rotating dependent upon pitch location. Yes, the shoulders do catch up because the hips can only rotate so far before they start to decelerate, while the shoulders are still turning fast.

Can't the degree of seperation between hips and shoulders be different for every hitter? Some hitters have a more flexible torso then others, causing more hip rotation prior to shoulders being initiated.

It seems that if we started hip rotation and never created the stretch in the torso we would just be forcing the shoulders to rotate. But if we allowed the hips to rotate while the shoulders try to turn against the rotating hips we would create the torque needed in the torso, we then can begin to tilt and rotate the shoulders.

So, to me it does appear that the hips and shoulders are rotating at the same time, but the hips are leading the way and the shoulders catch up because of deceleration of the hips (hitters with a less flexible torso the shoulders catch up earlier in the process). I also see the shoulders tilting, which I also believe to be important.

If I'm way off base please let me know.
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Hi Graylon

On this site, a post that questions our positions or offers an opposing view, is not considered “off base.” Well-presented opposing views are what make a thread both interesting and informative.

First, let us address “shoulder tilt.” Although “tilt” and “rotation” do (or can) occur, they normally do not occur at the same time. As Tom points out in his writings, many good hitters have their shoulders more level with the ground during the stride. Then, they tilt their axis and shoulders to -- (1) Set up the correct axis for shoulder rotation. And (2), to aid the arms in sweeping the bat-head from a more vertical position rearward to the launch position (PLT).

This means that “tilting” occurs during the batter’s pre-launch movements prior to initiating shoulder rotation. Once shoulder rotation is initiated, no further tilting of the shoulders should take place. As I discussed in the Bonds clip, the shoulders should then rotate about a fixed, and already tilted, axis.

Note: -- Another mechanic that appears as “shoulder tilt” occurs when a batter lowers an elevated back-elbow. The shoulder socket is hinged at the breastbone so that the socket raises and lowers 3 to 5 inches as the elbow is raised and lowered. This action does not effect the axis of shoulder rotation and should not be confused with the tilting of the shoulders.

Jack Mankin