Posted by: tom.guerry (tom.guerry@kp.org) on Fri Feb 28 08:25:46 2003

I was reading on another site a discussion about rotational mechanics and it was said that "the upper body stays back as the elbows drops into the slot" and another poster made reference to Epstein's number drills and esp. #2 drop and tilt occurs as front heel drops and BEFORE shoulder rotation.
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> > > I do not see that. It looks like to me that Bonds, A-Rod, Garciapora (3 I watched) start rotating the shoulders and slotting the elbows at the SAME time - I do agree that the bat turns 1st (THT as Jack calls it) before shoulder rotation and there is a certain elbow movement that occurs with that. But aside from turning the bat or THT, why would you "drop and tilt" before shoulder rotation - that to me puts you in a very weak hitting position? If you are connected the right way (and that is a big IF)- then why not just rotate? What does dropping and tilting (or Epstein's #2) accomplish when done BEFORE the shoulders start to rotate? Is drop and tilt another cue or the same thing as THT? This does not make sense to me - I do not understand how or what benefit that has. I probably do not understand what the CUE "drop and tilt" is or means. Does anybody know?
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> > Very good questions.These are hard things to see on video.They are even hard to feel sometimes.I do believe there is a distinction between "launch" and "drop and tilt" where you see some torso tilt/motion(accompanied by "THT") before "launch"(torso rotation)that is not just getting on plane,but part of ongoing separation which is going to power the swing.
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> > Take a video example-right now seano from eteamz has been kind enough to post a number of clips including Nomar,see:
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> > http://home.attbi.com/~seano52/proswings/nomar.mpg
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> > about 20 frames to contact.
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> > as clip begins,he keeps weight on the inside of the back foot.no backward hip sway.keeps a stable back hip as the golfer would say.
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> > when he picks up the front foot(actually "no-stride",but you can see this type action)he flexes the body(you could think of this as an inward turn,I think of it as geting to hip cock)and the weight/center of gravity/whole body starts forward.
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> > Within this motion as the swing proceeds,the lower body/hip can be seen to be uncocking by frame # 13 while somehow the upper body is staying back,creating separation.This uncock is associated by the front thigh beginning to turn over(externally rotate) and the back elbow beginning to externally rotate/drop into slot.The front thigh and back arm like to do this in synchrony while just fractions of a second later the back leg and front arm will internally rotate together/in synchront/at same time.
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> > In general,you can estimate that "launch" will start when the front heel is down.This is not an absolute.You will have to start turning/launching really quick on some inside high heat for example and can get yourself turning before the heel is down(this is one reason people think you can change where you stride-a dangerous thought if interpreted strictly).The best video marker for launch is when the hand path starts(perpendicular to flight of ball as Jack says).This is best seen from the overhead shot,but these are rare.The next best angle is often opposite batters box as in this clip since the hands may be hidden behind the body from the pitcher's/center field angle,which they often are.
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> > In this particular clip,Nomar has the heel down by frame 16 and it looks like the handpath "launched" just prior to this.So separation has been occuring between frames 13 and 16 at least.Then it's just more than 4 frames to contact,probably an outside location as the "L" starts coming out of the elbow just prior to contact(it would stay in elbow through contact on more insdie location).
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> > It can be hard to distinguish the torso movement that is part of plane adjustment/separation from launch,but I think it is important to make the distinction for good analysis.
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> > The "drop and tilt" is the separation part where "the box forms" primarily by the back arm externally rotating into the slot(further away from body for outside location),the front elbow works slighly "up"(internal rotation) and the weight shifts back/stops shifting forward so that when you do rotate,the feel is of it being carried over the inside of the back thigh.This action allows the torso to continue stretching and resisting rotation as seoaration maxes out.
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> > This is a continuation of what Epstein calls "counter rotation" which started earlier in the swing.When you do his drills,you counterrotate theupper body as you stride to balance("#1 position).You then drop and tilt as the front heel drops(the "drop" of drop and tilt).The tilt is the feel of the back shoulder dipping slightly which is the final positioning of the torso before the handpath launch starts.
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> What do you think of the front foot staying that closed that long?
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> Mark H.

A key to good separation is the external rotation of the front thigh and how this supports the hip.The actual position of the foot is secondary and can vary.Sometimes you teach backward by accentuating a foot position that will encourage good upper leg positioning and relation to the hip.I prefer the front foot at least at 45 degrees because I prefer some stride.I think its hard to cock the hip,strecth the body and separate without the hands and stride moving more freely together,but "no-stride" certainly works.When you do no stride,the front foot tends to be more closed,although in Nomar you will notice the heel down position will vary with inside out location(NOT and argument for using foot position/angle as a cue-it's something that will happen,like back toe drag,as another example-these are REACTIVE motions that are not "good teaches",they are "no teaches",or if mentioned,"bad teaches").