Posted by: tom.guerry (tom.guerry@kp.org) on Mon Feb 17 19:23:55 2003

While I appreciate the great chatter back and forth. I fear something has been lost. Our research and test is designed to show an athlete not how to have the perfect swing in comparison to McGwire, Bonds, Griffey, Garciaparra, or any other athlete. It is merely a guage to identify exactly what the athlete is doing. What ever you teach as an instructor, shows up, linear or rotational.
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> > > > > > Each athlete has specific strengths and weaknesses which impact their ability to swing a bat, throw a ball, or kick a soccer ball. Most players and coaches learn to master a movement without improving weaknesses, instead capitalizing on their strengths.
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> > > > > > As a former athlete and having spent over 15 years developing strength and conditioning programs for athletes including some of the worlds greatest in many sports, and personally touching almost 50,000 athletes during that time span, I can assure those of you who do believe Kinesiology and exercise physiology as a science, that it most definitely is just that.
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> > > > > > Supported by the fact that thousands of articles and research papers, books, and journal entries focus on the physiological factors necessary and present within specific sports activities.
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> > > > > > The assessments by O'Really, are well supported by his journals and reseach articles.
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> > > > > > I also understand the process each researcher goes through to reach their findings. And it is a tedious one.
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> > > > > > My assessment of the swing clip was a combination of a few things. #1 being I am seeing good and bad swings in my sleep, after spending the last year analyzing over 10,000 swings. #2-Having a basic understanding of anatomy. #3-Experience in working with athletes to achieve a desired outcome.
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> > > > > > So O'Really is right to a point. It is impossible to view that poor swing copy, unless you know what to look for. I specifically looked for strengths and weaknesses in the swing, because that is what I have trained my self to do when working with an athlete. After identifying those weaknesses, I must work with the athlete to minimize thoses weaknesses. That's what strength and conditioning coaches are supposed to do. (a hitting instructor should also do the same).
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> > > > > > Sorry to disappoint many of you, but I am not a scientist. I am an athlete and coach, just like many of you. The difference is that my job (thanks to Kinesiology) gives me the opportunity to pay special attention to the detailed movements and required movements of an athlete whether that is throwing a ball or swinging a bat. If I did not do so, I could fake it and athletes would get a little bit better, but that is not our goal. We must minimize the athlete's weaknesses.
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> > > > > > And I can assure you (even O'Really) that if you spent even one week looking at some of the data of what is actually happening. You to could have made the assessment as I did (based upon the education and research it sounds like you have done). As I said in my previous post, "It's a good thing Mark is big and strong, because otherwise he would not have hit 70 homeruns. Bonds (in case you didn't notice) has also gotten stronger in the last 2 years. Sosa (et tu?)
> > > > > > The bottom line is that in addition to the strength of the athlete, the typical homerun hitter is stable at contact and immediately following.
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> > > > > > Our findings are this every athlete does something different on every swing. As Rick mentioned in his analysis of one of our swings, there are ideal ranges where most of the best athletes fall in terms of acceleration/deceleration, posture (spine, pelvis, head, shoulder angles), and so much more.
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> > > > > > As a coach, you can do one of three things: #1: Teach all of your athletes the same swing. #2: teach your athletes a different swing tailored to their physical strengths. #3-Improve the athletes strengths and weaknesses and teach them the most efficient way for them to swing.
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> > > > > > With respect to Epstein's "The perfect swings is an the adjustments the hitter makes to the pitch he gets." That is true! But the adjustment is made not in the physical characteristics of their swing. The adjustment is made to "Timing"
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> > > > > > I challenge some of the greatest instructors on this board to come to Phoenix in late march for a day. We will invite some of the hitting coaches from major league teams to come out and experience what we are talking about. It will be an open forum, and we will use the our 6D Research system including force plates to test some of the hitting theories that are out their.
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> > > > > > Especially Mr. O'Really (who doesn't have to identify himself), Jack, Epstein, and some of the top high school instructors in the country. It is interesting that amongst this great debate, we are missing contribution of Jack Mankin. However, based upon my assessment of his research and previous posts, one of the contributors sounds a lot like Jack (smile!)
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> > > > > > I agree that the bottom line is once we discover what the athlete should do, we must explain to the front line instructors, "How to teach" what will make the athlete better. Bonds and Big Mac, have shown that strength and conditioning play a huge role. Tiger has also shown many people outside of strength and conditioning that it how your body responds (negatively and positively) to your repetitive sports motion, that can be impacted by how your body is prepared.
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> > > > > > The problem is that in the US, we focus way to early on specificity of sports. 3, 4, 5, and 6 yr olds are taught to swing a bat or golf club, throw a ball. Keeping in mind that we still have the best in the world in many sports, the rest of the world is catching up because our instructors are going to other countries to instruct their youth.
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> > > > > > The US led sports programs are gaining much more exposure in foreign countries. However, as they begin to catch up in instruction, the will always be ahead in discipline, dedication, focus and early physical preparation. We have the best basketball players, baseball players, track and field athletes, because we have been doing it longer, there are many great athletes in South America countries who could be great hitters and pitchers, just like there many great athletes on city courts who could be Michael Jordan. They just lack the support system that is available to many in this country.
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> > > > > > I look forward to seeing you in Phoenix.
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> > > > > > Until then, I will continue to enjoy your posts and great debate.
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> > > > > When can we see the swing clips?
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> > > > Zig-
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> > > > I would think Epstein's adjustment includes physical changes,not "just" timing changes(it would have to include both).Mike spends a lot of time on matching the plane as one of his universals.Do you think he is imagining what he really sees ? I don't.
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> > > > The timing is substantially different for inside and out,so to begin with Mike recommends looking one way or the other(ignore situational effects on the plane for the pitch).In general,you would want as simple a method of adjusting to cover the zone because this would mean fewer motor swing programs to master and more consistent timing,and probably more reaction time.Jack proposes one way to explain the physical change which accompanies the timing change as you adjust inside/out,given his "absolute" that the handpath raius/circle needs to be set at launch.The hitter looking outside and getting what he is looking for(a good pitch to hit) will load/stretch/separate relatively longer(let ball get deep in timing sense,not necessarily spatial sense)."launch" (torso turn) is relatively delated,and once started is a "higher load" situation.On the other hand,while launch is relatively delayed as the handpath radius is increase,the "final arc" turning of the bat progresses more.This gives a combination of more "THT"(final arc),longer handpath radius with less torso turn(2nd arc) and puts the sweetspot at contact perpendicular to the pitch(permitting good margin for spatial/timing error).Inside pitch would be a combo of less THT before launch,tighter handpath,more torso turn before contact.Still ideally perpendicular to flightpath,although practically usually giving more of a "pull"(good thing to study with your stuff?).
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> > > > I will continue in next part(computer acting funny).
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> > Computer messing up + operator error,sorry.
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> > More adjustments that should be measurable.Still these are millesecond sort of things,that according to Epstein create enough of a discrepency intiming that you must look inside or out or shorten your swing in the 2 strike situation.Still you should be able to time launch and degree of torso turn and handpath radius and hoe far bat/final arc has turned prior to launch.So that's the inside out adjustment you have planned for before the pitch.
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> > You might have also planned on getting quicker by establisshing a more vertical axis-getting on top/keepin the hands on top/leveling out the swing if you are having a hard time catching up to the high hard one.Degree and timing of tilt of axis(forward/backward in vertical/saggital plane)should be measurable here-lots of measures on same hitter different velocity/location of pitch necessary to limit variables.
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> > Now lets assume you are looking in or out and have decided where you are going to sit on your axis.You get your pitch and now within this you are going to adjust posture(degree of bend at waist creating torso angle or "spine angle"-golf term) to get on plane of pitch.If we again use Epstein's model,he emphasizes mostly the front elbow here(after explaining how the elbows work together and how they relate to "weight shift/where you sit on axis/how far behind axis you sit and how this relates to how the bodt coils and uncoils).In any case,there is a generic "drop and tilt" as separation finishes(prior to launch).This is accompanied by torso/elbow action that creates/adds to ongoing bat turn(final arc/tht).As the low pitch is recognized,the front elbow(which always begins to work up slightly during drop and tilt with a feel of weight going back over the inner back thigh as a sign that ther has been good setting up of axis of rotation without lunging) works up more to lock the lead arm into the plane of the low pitch as the torso angle is increased to match the plane of the low pitch(this shuld be measurable).On the other hand,if the high ball is recognized,the elbow action (automatically programmed from experience/practice) will go from drop and tilt to elbow working up less with less torso angle and different swingplane set by lead arm.
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> > This should be verifiable with the aim of not only identifying a hitter's strength and weaknesses,but of helping the hitter optimize his physical/mechanical method of adjusting.I would think you could confirm(or refute) that the advanced hitter matches the plane via these physical motions.
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> >>Tom ,I have always struggled with the higher load Idea ,I felt you were right but I just could'nt put it into words or feel.This topic however has me thinking and for me its not a higher load but more of a further back load that ties in with the delay for o.s. pitch It also feels to me that maybe the rear elbow does not come very tight to the ribs and there by is what helps pull the lead arm out across the chest and I can now feel what Jack has said all along about tht helping on the o.s. pitch.The rear shoulder seems to be used sooner and overrides the swing here ,as opposed to the inside pitch where I think the lead shoulder initiates the pull as the rear shoulder comes tight to the ribs to get in a position to drive the top hand further in the swing where bht comes into play.

rql-
These are great descriptions."Further back load" is the feel of creating the wider handpath radius."Higher load situation" is more of a video description of the appearance that the torso then turns less to contact while the bat swings out more,so apparently the torso is drained of energy faster and turns less from launch to contact.Batspeed is still good because the bat turns more/faster prior to launch.This combo gets the sweetspot to contact with a minimal way of adjusting with good batspeed and no significant loss of timing accuracy(theoretically speaking).As Jack has explained,this gives a different directional feel to the THT which results in the elbow dropping onto a slot further away from the side.There is more straightening of the lead arm which contributes to the change of feel of connection to be more aware of the back shoulder "tilt" as compared to front shoulder "pull".