Posted by: Shawn () on Mon Feb 17 09:44:39 2003

I see this interesting thread below, but I don't know where it all started.
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> > > > > "Dan and the Teacherman?
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> > > > > Please print this so you can read it two or three times.....
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> > > > > Thank you for showing that you can't see with your eyes what is really happening even in the slow motion or quicktime viewing of the swing you suggest.
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> > > > > A loss of balance occurs when an individual no longer controls controls where they are in time or space with relationship to the ground or an object on which they are standing. This can occur in the swing when the weight is transferred to the front or back of the front foot or to the front or back of the rear foot. Lower body stability can be affected by the strength and flexibility of the hamstrings and glutes. If the glutes or hamstrings are in a position where they are unlikely to complete a solid contraction (back leg bend or internal rotation of the back leg) the glutes and or hamstrings are unable to perform their job of stabilization of the body during the swing.
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> > > > > When Mark starts his swing, his hips begin to rotate after a linear shift in weight, and he activates the internal rotation of his back leg. This is evidenced by the direction of his back knee moving towards the pitch, and the closing of the gap from his between the inside of both his thighs. (True hip rotation (not leg rotation) occurs when the glutes contract). Biomechanical Kinesiology 301.
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> > > > > When Mark's back foot (heel) lifts of the ground nearly to the point when his on the tip of his toes he is off balance. This instability is obvious to Mark as at that point he firmly drives the weight into the heel of his front foot. This causes the toes of his front foot to come up...in case you missed that part. (sending his body weight backwards!!!!!!). This is done while he attempts to simultaneously extend the back leg at the hip while still on the front of his back foot. If you don't believe this is an off-balance position (spread your feet get into his finish position and lift the toes on your front foot, while simultaneously lifting the heel of your back foot. You can even try to do it will swinging a bat and see if you have enough strength to do it. Oh and don't forget to lean your upper torso back about 25 to 30 degrees, because that where he is. And you will see that...as I stated in my previous posting....He is strong enough to get away with it.
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> > > > > Unfortunately, I do not have a perfect swing to show and neither do you. While I have many swings that are much closer to the correct sequencing, acceleration/deceleration, bat rotational or angular speed, wrist angle, and many other components of the body.
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> > > > > The next thing you guys will be trying to tell me is that his lead arm doesn't bar as he starts his swing.
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> > > > > Please review your swing closer before you start to take shots and me and our research. Definitely before you begin to celebrate.
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> > > > > The data and our findings does not lie. And we certainly can't fake it like some people out there. As I have stated before...Jack is on the right track...If you have any common sense you'll begin to listen to him and change your way of thinking. Challenge is good...and questions are great...But as an instructor and educator of thousands....Your questions should be geared towards promoting an opportunity for you to learn...You won't get to Ah-Ha me or Jack, and most of what Epstein says as well. If you are someone who works with kids, just try to get the most knowledge you can and help them to grow. if you have kids that are strong, explosive, and flexible at the same time...model them after who ever you want.
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> > > > > By the way, Mark's back problems were caused by excessive VIBRATION to the muscles stabilizing his pelvis and lumbar spine the muscles that connect his back to his hip), causing constant spasms and microtears.
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> > > > > A_________!
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> > > > > Zig Ziegler"
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> > > > > I guess the question started with McGwires swing, which I believe he caused most of his own medical problems with his swing.
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> > > > > His swing often broke down, hitting .225, or trying. It's the muscled up hip action, rotation.
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> > > > > Is this the argument, that Mark has/had a good swing? Let's just say he's lucky he was huge. What is ideal for person isn't ideal for another.
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> > > > > It was surprising to hear someone talk about vibrations, not the least how the muscular system hooks up.
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> > > > > Vibrations are real, the spine being the finest instrument ever played. If you rock this string, it doesn't play great music.
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> > > > > As Dr Sherrington said, "To take a step is an affair, not of this or that limb solely, but of the total neuromuscular activity of the moment".
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> > > > > Shawn
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> > > > O'Reilly sounds like Paul Nyman, more to say on this later. Some of what O'Reilly has posted does have value.
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> > > > I take it Zig is from Skill tech?
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> > > > "A loss of balance occurs when an individual no longer controls controls where they are in time or space with relationship to the ground or an object on which they are standing."
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> > > > Someone please explain how you can control this? Do you know how the brain sends the information to and through the spine and out to the muscles, which then in turn sends information back?
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> > > > Do you really have any control over this process?
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> > > > Less is more.
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> > > > If Mcgwire does have a balance problem, or excessive muscular contractions and force. The only way you can correct (?) this problem is from elevating some of the noise. You must go backwards into the initial learning process.
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> > > > It can't be fixed by merely adjusting body parts and pieces, the entire neuromuscular system needs to relearn a more optimal way (ideal or desired, sequence).
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> > > > While I believe you can observe yourself through kinetic awareness, and feedback. I don't believe working on a piece here and there does much, if any good. Often we must resort to this, because the hitter is so uncoordinated and/or lacks any ability to foresee there is another system (e.g., propioception).
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> > > > The totalness of how this sequence happens, will never be completely explained by measuring individual segments. You can have the desired sequence and a really crappie swing. If you believe it can, then perhaps you can explain how my computer works (key board, to processor, how the processor works, and so on).
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> > > > Shawn
> > >
> > > Well I seem to have created quite a discussion. I made my post critiquing Zig Ziegler's analysis of Mark McGuire's swing on Friday from work.
> > > I checked the forum today and I don't believe I've ever seen such activity.
> > > Sadly I'll be away on vacation for the next week and won't be able to participate as this goes on.
> > >
> > > Several thoughts to leave you all with:
> > > - I gave my opinion and left it open for comments. Seems to have created some hostility from Zig when it was meant to stir discussion.
> > > - If Zig knows more, that's fine with me. Why not post the 6D numbers from his fantastic machine and show us all how valuable the analysis is. Seems easier than trying to discredit me with spurious arguments.
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> > > Zig- if you've got the numbers, show us the numbers
> > >
> > > - the last person to call me the 'class clown' and other such epithets was none other than Chuckie Lau Jr. Is this a case of "I'm back"? or has Zig just taken a page from Chuck's arsenal?
> > > - I challenge you all to think hard about Zig's 6D machine and what it can do:
> > > - What are the benefits of this biomechanical, kinesthenic (sp?) analysis?
> > > - what are its limits. THere are some and we'd all be better off understanding them
> > > - can this thing operate without an underlying swing theory?
> > > - what are the assumptions made about the swing that the numbers then support?
> > >
> > > If you do not understand these things, you can be buffaloed by the numbers.
> > > Hold Zig's statements and assumptions to the fire. If he has something good it will stand the test.
> > > If this is some reincarnation of Charlie Lau Jr pulling a prank on us, hopefully that will be discovered as well.
> > >
> > > Have a fun week. I'll be back....
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> >
> > Has it ever occured to anyone that Mcgire's swing started "breaking down" because of his AGE? Seems like the swing of Ruth, Mays, Aaron, et al also started "breaking down" when they were past their prime. What will you tell us next, that Bonds' swing is not "breaking down" because he is a rotationist? Such a statement would not surprise me, given that you have already stated that Griffey has been regressing due to his full extension in his swing.Funny thing, though, I don't hear Mccarver or for that matter, any of the scouts, major leaguers, pro hitting instructors, no one saying anything about "linear" vs "rotation" or any of the other stuff you talk about.
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> remember McCarver-
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> http://www.setpro.com/cgi-bin/ultimate bb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000507#000000
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> and t=000499#000000

We have to give Mark high marks for being a converted pitcher. He was a slugger, and no one has the perfect swing, at times we may see a glispe of perfection.

But, he did tried to force rotation, which can cause health problems. No, his numbers changed from year to year throughout his career. It wasn't just old age that caused the bottom to fall out of his swing.

Shawn