Posted by: tom.guerry (tom.guerry@kp.org) on Tue Feb 11 19:47:03 2003

Telling your hitters to raise the back elbow compounds a common problem. Whenever the back elbow starts up, it must come down before the ball is hit. The swing then tends to get underneath the ball, which causes the player to pop up or miss the ball altogehter. To form the proper box, the hitter must have the back elbow down with the upper part of the top hand about level with the top of the back shoulder. The hands should be 6 - 10 inches from the body. The elbows should be even.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > TRUE or FALSE?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----------
> > > > > > False.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Why does Bonds and AROD and Garciapora and Griffey have their back elbows up? Because they want to uppercut? Back elbow up is a more powerful, more connected position IMO.
> > > > > ----------
> > > > > True. To swing level, especially when the pitcher is throwing a rise then back elbow up is not a good idea.
> > > >
> > > > Mike-
> > > > not clear to me if you are saying that the top hand upper arm should be parallel to the ground - hand and elbow at the same height. If you are saying that that is good, do you call that NOT having the elbow up?
> > > > I see coaches who want the back elbow down and their hitters wait with the elbow pointed at the catcher's knees, hands above the elbows.
> > > > Can you clarify what you consider up, down, too high, etc.
> > > _____-
> > > I think the elbows (both) need to be even; in between shoulder level and the waist; the hands however are level with the top of the back shoulder and the elbows are definitely below the hands and shoulder level. Basically the back elbow is already "in the slot" next to the rib cage. Dusty Baker coined the term BOX in his book "you can teach hitting" and in his book he says "an improper box is formed if the back elbow is UP. Youth league coaches commonly make the mistake of telling hitters to keep the back elbow UP." There are pictures in the book and it shows the proper BOX being one >when the elbows are EVEN with each other. Does that clear it up?
> >
> > I'll have to take another look at Dusty's book. Its been a while.
> > It seems clear that you like the back elbow low - already in the slot/next to the rib cage.
> >
> > If the elbow is high and that position is used to push the bat forward with the top hand, I agree a high back elbow is bad thing. I have seen this taught and shudder when I see it...
> > If the back elbow is low, then the upper arm is not internally rotated. Instead it is already somewhat externally rotated. It is also hard to load/pinch the scapula with the elbow down - both advantageous actions.
> > Starting from the low position, it is easy for the elbow to work under and past the top hand, leaving the hands behind the elbows early in the swing.
> > Do you have a problem with that happening? if so how do you avoid it with a low back elbow? Do you want your hitters to load their scapula? internally rotate the upper arm?
>
>
> Major Dan
> I agree with you on Epstein's arm interpretations. He mentions a "slot", the range that the front elbow works in depending on pitch height. If I understand correctly, on the low pitch, front elbow works more upward, and more level on the pitch up so that the hitter can get "on top", (his words). I can't get this to make physical sense, I get a better feel from planing the lead shoulder, ala Nomar, (one example). In one clip I can plainly see him work the lead shoulder UP and out on the pitch below the belt. this made instant sense to me as soon as I tried it. I also like back elbow up, I don't think that Baker's version of the box is the same as Tom's version.

This is my current thinking(you asked):

The key movement is the drop and tilt/separation.Of course you have to set up well before this and finish well after.

In the initial part of the swing,you turn the whole body back(inward turn),pinch/flex at the waist,start the center of gravity along a line toward the pitcher,and finish this phase with "hip cock".

Next you stretch/start arching the body mainly with the feel of back arm/scap loading and stride foot going out.

This smoothly transitions into separation as the hips uncock and start to rotate.The hip uncocking/rotation/separation is initially supported by the upper leg/thighs with the front thigh starting to turn over/externally rotate and the back leg(already flexed as it carries weight forward)internally rotating.This starts the bottom half opening before stride toe touch.

In the meantime,the torso has continued(since the initial inward turn of the whole body) to stretch/coil(now that separation has started) assisted by upper limb motions that are synchronized with their opposite lower body limbs.When the front leg thigh turns over/externally rotates,the back arm externally rotates into the slot.When the back leg internally rotates to assist hip turn,the lead arm internally rotates.This paired motion of the arms(form the box/elbows work together/back elbow into slot as front elbow starts to work up,etc.) keeps the torso stretching the other way/winding the rubber band until the front heel drop/stride foot resistance recruits the gravity energy to start the torso rotating("launch").The motion/sequence is almost exactly the same as in pitching up to the point that the torso starts to rotate,but very different from then on in the 2 motions.The tightly connected/internally rotated lead arm in hitting has the same feel as the internally rotated lead arm/firm glove side in pitching.

I do not like the word counter rotation to decribe this just because personally this tends to get interpreted as a "backswing" which is a very different use of muscles to my way of thinking.However,Epstein does have success teaching this way.As you may know,he starts teaching this move with the bat resting against the back upper arm,so the hands/arms are not yet free to do their thing.He simulates this particular move by describing the "counterrotation" of the torso as an en bloc move of the torso and arms back as the botom half opens.Then when the motion is learned and the hands and arms are cut loose in the full swing,you use the arm motions to assist in this counter rotation(back elbow into slot/front elbow slightly working up).While this is a particular learning method that puts the body through positions that encourage the hitter to find his own unique successful biomechanical way of winding and unwinding the rubber band(his own "style"),the feel of the desired finished product is somewhat different from the arms and torso moving back together/in a single piece.Said another way,not just the degrees of freedom,but the actual sequence of the full swing motion may be different from "the arms and torso rotating back together" instructions used to encourage "counter rotation".

This is all the drop and tilt/torque and numbers drill motion where eventually if you get the hands flat as quickly as possible you will have the bat turning(tht) BEFORE "launch"(when the torso starts to drive the handpath).

Weathervaning is just a cue for the angle the torso is set at to match the plane of the pitch.Low ball,more bend at waist,elbow will work up more AFTER "launch"(the original work up/internal rotation is part of separation/drop and tilt before "launch".

Getting more on top/setting your sites higher/leveling out the swing seem like cues(as part of PRE-pitch plan) for keeping the axis of rotation more upright/vertical which will help catch up to the high ball.

In the linear swing,the high elbow is avoided thinking that as it comes down it will encourage backside collapse/uppercutting.