Posted by: Major Dan (markj89@charter.net) on Tue Feb 11 11:52:13 2003

>>> This thread on 'staying inside the ball' never did reach any sort of resolution.
> > > > I will throw out several questions that need to be addressed in order to have this discussion:
> > > > 1- is 'staying inside the ball' and 'keeping the hands in' the same thing?
> > > > 1A - if not, what does 'staying inside the ball' mean?
> > > >
> > > > 2- what is relationship between transfer mechanics and 'staying inside the ball' (that is pretty close to Phil's original question)
> > > >
> > > > 3- if good transfer mechanics = staying connected, does staying connected necessarily make the hitter 'stay inside the ball' ? <<<
> > > >
> > > > Hi Major Dan & Teacherman
> > > >
> > > > I think Major Dan asked the key question, “what does 'staying inside the ball' mean?” I really have had a problem identifying the real purpose of the cue. From a normal position in the box, the ball is around 24 inch or so from the hands at contact. And since for most of the strike zone the hand-path also reaches it’s widest path at contact, there is virtually no way the hands could even approach going “outside the ball.” So, “what does 'staying inside the ball' mean?” What is supposed to accomplish?
> > > >
> > > > In my opinion, when the cue was originated, it had nothing to do with staying connected. I think the “keep your hands inside the ball” cue is and old holdover from linear mechanics. It was intended to take any arc (or loop) out of the hand-path so the hands could go directly (straight) to the ball. --- For a batter to produce the most productive circular-hand-path, the first direction of the hands can not be back at the pitcher. As I show in the instructional video, the first movement must be perpendicular to the flight of the ball or parallel to the catcher’s shoulders. To me, “Keep your hands inside the ball” and “ The first movement of the hands must be perpendicular to the flight of the ball” are contradicting terms.
> > > >
> > > > Jack Mankin
> > >
> > > Jack/Dan
> > >
> > > A lot of people say keep the hands inside the ball. But a more effective cue, in my experience, is "hit the inside of the ball". Obviously the hands are always inside the ball. But telling someone to hit the inside of the ball says something completely different. I think it's very similar to the pin ball flipper idea and I think it helps with connection, helps with avoiding casting, helps with keeping the hands in and helps with letting the ball travel deeper.
> > >
> > > To me, I see the benefit of the "cue" "hit the inside of the ball". I'm not sure that the "reality" is you actually hit the inside of the ball. I think it addresses the angle of approach creating a short compact swing versus the longer loopy swing.
> > > >
> > > >
> > I won't pretend to understand the 'old guard' baseball people who look at me funny when I ask what “keep your hands inside the ball” means. I agree it's meaningless on the surface.
> >
> > What I think IS important is 'keeping the hands in'. To me this is very meaningful. Jack, you include many of the requirements for keeping the hands in - back elbow stays by the ribs during shoulder turn being the key one. The front arm is also involved. The lead arm should be pulled by the shoulder turn and should be pulling the bat. Too bent a lead arm is awkward and moves the top hand toward the pitcher/away from the back shoulder - not recommended. Too straight a lead arm and the bat will cast.
> > Someone recently posted suggesting a lead arm bend of 15-30 degrees (if I remember correctly) and that sounds about right as a guideline for a starting point.
> > What does 'keeping the hands in' mean? I have not heard it described concisely but I have seen many posts lately dancing around it. Tom Guerry's internal rotation of the top hand arm; maintaining the box; lead elbow pointed somewhat up and bent at contact all refer to this in some ways.
> > Consider that the top hand elbow can be against the ribs and acting as the oar lock, yet the elbow can have various degrees of bend from this position. The more the top hand elbow bends, the more the lead arm elbow must straighten. Conversely, the straighter the lead arm, the more the top hand elbow has to bend even when kept against the ribs during shoulder rotation.
> > Allow me a digression to make my point: the Power V.
> > At the point where the power V occurs, both elbows are straightening/straight. It is desirable to have this happen in front of the chest rather than toward the side of the body. It is also desirable to have this happen toward the pitcher/after contact/out in front. In the power V, the hands have moved out beyond the elbows. The arms are nearly straight. The hands have come out.
> >
> > What is the opposite of the power V? The hands are more or less between the elbows. This cannot be too literal- nobody hits with a straight line from elbow to elbow. But the relationship of the two elbows and the hands between them is set at load time. IF that relationship is maintained with connection through the shoulder turn and into contact, the hands will not come out of that configuration (the box!) until after contact and will extend into the Power V out in front of the body toward the pitcher.
> > If the hands come out of that configuration early in the shoulder turn/before contact, the bat will either cast if the lead arm stays firm and straight, or drag if both arms collapse.
> >
> > The loss of integrity of the elbow-to-elbow alignment (the box) early in the swing is the hands coming out early - 'hands NOT staying in'.
> >
> > In a correct swing the hands stay in [between the elbows] until contact.
> > So it is beneficial to 'keep the hands in'. It is critical to keep the hands in [between the elbows] until the ball is contacted. After that the hands come out into the Power V. So one could say 'keep the hands in until you hit the ball'. Could that have been shortened to 'keep the hands inside [until they get to] the ball' ???? That's the only sense I make of that phrase...
> >
> > Jack, you have always stressed that lower body actions are only important as far as they drive shoulder rotation. Isn't it also true that shoulder rotation is only important as far as it takes the bat with it to the ball.?
> > If so, then the actions/configuration of the arms are the connection between shoulder turn and bat. Shoulder turn won't do much good for a hitter who's arms/hands don't connect the bat to the shoulders.
> > 'Keeping the hands in' [between the elbows] accomplishes that IMO.
>
> ---------
> I watch a lot of hitters (most MLB) who never get totally extended or to this power V. What's the purpose of extension after contact? Why can't you stay tight and connected even after contact?
>
> The cue is "stay connected" it has nothing to do with the "hands" or what part of the ball you hit. I agree with Jack, hit the inside of the ball is a LINEAR cue to go from point A to B - no arc. It has no place in rotational hitting and should not even be used.
>
> What is the "BOX"? Can somebody explain?

George-
I agree that you don't have to extend into the Power V. Many players do however, at least sometimes. A good tight swing with the hands in and a quick torso turn will create a tremendous force that wants to pull the bat out of the rotation. Once contact is made, releasing the bat is a non-issue.
Additionally, some widening or tightening of the circular hand path happens as late adjustment to the ball - pull the hands in on an inside pitch, start to extend if the ball is away.
If there is any start of extension into contact, it is hard to not have the extension continue after contact.

'The cue is "stay connected" it has nothing to do with the "hands" '
Are you saying that as long as the lead arm pulls and the top hand doesn't push, the relationship between hands, elbows, shoulders can be anything - static, changing, whatever... ?